From clemc at ccc.com Wed Dec 1 02:47:48 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:47:48 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Encoding an ISA: Random Logic vs. Control Stores In-Reply-To: <010901d7e5c1$4a0c7c20$de257460$@gmail.com> References: <010901d7e5c1$4a0c7c20$de257460$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Moving to COFF as this is less UNIX and more computer architecture and design style... On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 3:07 AM wrote: > Given a random logic design it's efficient to organize the ISA encoding > to maximize its regularity. Probably also of some benefit to compilers in a memory-constrained > environment? > To be honest, I think that the regularity of the instruction set is less for the logic and more for the compiler. Around the time the 11 was being created Bill Wulf and I think Gordan as co-author, wrote a paper about how instruction set design, the regularity, lack of special cases, made it easier to write a code optimizer. Remember a couple of former Bell and Wulf students were heavily involved in the 11 (Strecker being the main one I can think of off the top of my head). Also remember that Gordan and the CMU types of those days were beginning to create what we now call Hardware Description Languages (HDL). Gordon describes in "Bell and Newell" (the definitive Computer Structures book of the 1970s) his Processor-Memory-Switch (PMS) diagrams. The original 11 (which would become the 11/20) was first described as a set of PMS diagrams. PMS of course, beget the Instruction Set Processor Language (ISPL) that Mario created a couple of years later. While ISPL was after the 11 had been designed, ISPL could synthesize a system using PDP-16 RTM modules. A later version from our old friend from UNIX land, Ted Kowalski [his PhD thesis actually], that could spit out TTL from the later ISPS simulator and compiler [the S being simulation]. ISPS would beget VHDL, which beget today Verilog/System Verilog. IIRC it was a lecture Gordon Gordan gave us WRT to microcode *vs.* direct logic. He offered that microcode had the advantage that you could more easily update things in the field, but he also felt that if we could catch the errors before you released the HW to the world, and if we could then directly synthesize, that would be even better - no errors/no need to update. That said, by the 11/40, DEC started to microcode the 11's, although as you point out the 11/34 and later 11/44, where more direct logic than the 11/40 - and of course Wulf would created the 11/40e - which writeable control store so they add some instructions and eventually build C.mmp. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bakul at iitbombay.org Wed Dec 1 05:04:25 2021 From: bakul at iitbombay.org (Bakul Shah) Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:04:25 -0800 Subject: [COFF] Encoding an ISA: Random Logic vs. Control Stores In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <677CBEE9-8651-4587-8F38-238107939720@iitbombay.org> On Nov 30, 2021, at 8:49 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > Also remember that Gordan and the CMU types of those days were beginning to create what we now call Hardware Description Languages (HDL). Gordon describes in "Bell and Newell" (the definitive Computer Structures book of the 1970s) his Processor-Memory-Switch (PMS) diagrams. The original 11 (which would become the 11/20) was first described as a set of PMS diagrams. PMS of course, beget the Instruction Set Processor Language (ISPL) that Mario created a couple of years later. While ISPL was after the 11 had been designed, ISPL could synthesize a system using PDP-16 RTM modules. A later version from our old friend from UNIX land, Ted Kowalski [his PhD thesis actually], that could spit out TTL from the later ISPS simulator and compiler [the S being simulation]. ISPS would beget VHDL, which beget today Verilog/System Verilog. Verilog has no direct connection with VHDL. Phil Moorby had been working with HILO simulators since 1976 so had considerable experience with simulators and based on that experience he designed Verilog as a fast gate & switch level simulator, as well as for synthesis. See https://community.cadence.com/cadence_blogs_8/b/ii/posts/q-amp-a-phil-moorby-hdl-pioneer-and-cadence-fellow-from-verilog-to-parallel-programming and https://community.cadence.com/cadence_blogs_8/b/breakfast-bytes/posts/phil-moorby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Thu Dec 2 07:56:55 2021 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 07:56:55 +1000 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Encoding an ISA In-Reply-To: References: <010901d7e5c1$4a0c7c20$de257460$@gmail.com> <202111301530.1AUFU2eC015214@freefriends.org> <202111301850.1AUIovEG006894@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202111302307.1AUN7TBv066715@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <202112010500.1B150a48077541@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <028601d7e67c$87e1bbd0$97a53370$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20211201215655.GA24090@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I think it's time to move the ISA and random logic threads over to COFF :-) Thanks! Warren From grog at lemis.com Fri Dec 3 10:27:46 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 11:27:46 +1100 Subject: [COFF] Software Tools on Tandem (was: Ratfor revived!) In-Reply-To: References: <4186ba55-8c1d-9a7b-f7f7-f45a86d3fe0c@solar.stanford.edu> Message-ID: <20211203002746.GA58205@eureka.lemis.com> In keeping with the list charters, I'm moving this to COFF. On Thursday, 2 December 2021 at 11:30:35 -0500, John Cowan wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 12:45 AM Henry Bent wrote: > >> The Byte article (the scan of which I am very grateful for; not having to >> go trawling through the stacks at the Oberlin College library is always a >> plus) claims that the tools have been implemented on: >> >> Tandem > > That would be me; at least I registered it with Addison-Wesley, > although someone else may have implemented it independently. I recall something about this, but I didn't find very much in my collection of old email messages. The most promising was: Date: 87-11-06 09:47 From: LEHEY_GREG To: ANDERSON_KEN @CTS Subject: ?? Is there a "make"-like utility for Tandem ?? In Reply to: 87-11-05 18:59 FROM ANDERSON_KEN @CTS 3:?? Is there a "make"-like utility for Tandem ?? No, but I'd LOVE to have one. Ask Dick Thomas - in his spare time, he converts software tools to Tandem. Did you have contact with Dick? Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cowan at ccil.org Fri Dec 3 11:45:15 2021 From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:45:15 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Software Tools on Tandem (was: Ratfor revived!) In-Reply-To: <20211203002746.GA58205@eureka.lemis.com> References: <4186ba55-8c1d-9a7b-f7f7-f45a86d3fe0c@solar.stanford.edu> <20211203002746.GA58205@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: > 3:?? Is there a "make"-like utility for Tandem ?? > > No, but I'd LOVE to have one. Ask Dick Thomas - in his spare time, he > converts software tools to Tandem. > > Did you have contact with Dick? > No, my contact at that time with the Unix(oid) community was solely through books, of which the A-W tape was a direct extension. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Sun Dec 5 06:29:18 2021 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 07:29:18 +1100 (EST) Subject: [COFF] ARPAnet now 4 nodes Message-ID: The ARPAnet reached four nodes on this day in 1969; at least one "history" site reckoned the third node was connected in 1977 (and I'm still waiting for a reply to my correction). Well, I can believe that perhaps there were only three left by then... According to my notes, the nodes were UCSB, UCLA, SRI, and Utah. -- Dave From athornton at gmail.com Mon Dec 6 14:25:11 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2021 21:25:11 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Probably time to move this to COFF, but along the line of Fission for Program Comprehension.... I wonder how many of you don't know about Don Lancaster. Pioneer in home computing back when that meant something, inventor of a very low cost 1970s video terminal (the TV Typewriter), tremendously skilled hacker, brilliant guy. Also still alive, lives a couple hours away from me in Safford, AZ, and has been doing fantastic research on Native American hanging canals for the last couple decades. Anyway: he wrote a magnificent piece on how to understand a (6502) program from its disassembly, which reminded me of Gibbons's work: https://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/tearing_rework.pdf I don't think Don ever had a lot of crossover with the more academic world of Unix people, but he's one of my heroes and I have learned a hell of a lot from his works. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Dec 7 00:11:46 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:11:46 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adam - first thank you. Pleased to know he's still kicking around. On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:26 PM Adam Thornton wrote: > I don't think Don ever had a lot of crossover with the more academic world > of Unix people, but he's one of my heroes and I have learned a hell of a > lot from his works. > Not true at all. If you grew up as EE, in the late 1960s/early 1970s it was hard to not know about him since he was so prolific. FWIW, before I went to CMU, he was already a hero and I had a number of books from the late 1960's. When I was freshman in the early 1970s, his TTL Cookbook was an optional text for the intro to EE course [I already had it but a number of my mates had never seen it before]. His CMOS Cookbox was not published yet, but when it was, I bought it. Side story, I want to say about 1969/70, after reading one of his articles in Radio-Electronics I sent him a (US snail mail) letter asking him for help in designing an RF interface to a TV. He replied to me but told me such a design would be illegal to make as it would run afoul of FCC rules. I wish I had kept that letter, but he reversed himself a few years later with his TV Typewriter and Son of Video books. My guess is he had been researching the idea for one of the magazines when I contacted him, and must have gotten a ruling from legal counsel about publishing the same. I always wondered what made him change his mind a few years later. Since he seems to publish an email, I think I'll have to write him and ask that way to see if he responds. Clem ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Tue Dec 7 00:22:05 2021 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:22:05 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [TUHS to Bcc] On Mon, Dec 6, 2021 at 9:15 AM Clem Cole wrote: > Adam - first thank you. Pleased to know he's still kicking around. > > On Sun, Dec 5, 2021 at 11:26 PM Adam Thornton wrote: > >> I don't think Don ever had a lot of crossover with the more academic >> world of Unix people, but he's one of my heroes and I have learned a hell >> of a lot from his works. >> > Not true at all. If you grew up as EE, in the late 1960s/early 1970s it > was hard to not know about him since he was so prolific. FWIW, before I > went to CMU, he was already a hero and I had a number of books from the > late 1960's. When I was freshman in the early 1970s, his TTL Cookbook was > an optional text for the intro to EE course [I already had it but a number > of my mates had never seen it before]. His CMOS Cookbox was not published > yet, but when it was, I bought it. > Indeed, still well-known: I have both his TTL and CMOS cookbooks within easy reach. - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 7 00:29:24 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 09:29:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation Message-ID: <20211206142924.A8A7118C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> OK, this is my last _civil_ request to stop email-bombing both lists with trafic. In the future, I will say publicly _exactly_ what I think - and if screens still had phosphor, it would probably peel it off. I can see that there are cases when one might validly want to post to both lists - e.g. when starting a new discusson. However, one of the two should _always_ be BCC'd, so that simple use of reply won't generate a copy to both. I would suggest that one might say something like 'this discussion is probably best continued on the list' - which could be seeded by BCCing the _other_. Thank you. Noel From crossd at gmail.com Wed Dec 22 11:56:40 2021 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2021 20:56:40 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Multics comes to amateur radio. Message-ID: Chalk this up to "pointless hack" but I know many COFF readers (and presumably some multicians) are also ham radio enthusiasts, so perhaps some folks will find this interesting. I have succeeded in what I suspect may be a first: providing a direct interface from AX.25 amateur packet radio connections to a Multics installation (and TOPS-20). I've been interested in packet radio for a while and have run an AX.25 station at home for some time, and I have configured things so that incoming radio connections to a particular SSID proxy into telnet to a Unix machine on my AMPRNet subnet. I don't run the traditional AX.25 "node" software, but can log directly into a timesharing machine in my basement, which is pretty cool. Some recent upgrades provided an opportunity for a project interfacing "retro" computer instances with packet radio. AX.25 is a slow medium: 1200 BAUD (this is on 2m) packed switched over a high-loss, high-latency RF path. While my Unix machine does all right, it occurs to me that systems designed in the teletype era might actually be better suited to that kind of communications channel. So I set up a DPS8/M emulator and configured the packet node to forward an SSID to Multics. After some tweaking to clean up a bizarre number of ASCII NUL characters coming from the emulator (I suspect a bug there; I'm going to email those folks about that), things are working pretty well: I can connect into the system interactively and even use qedx to write PL/1 programs. To my knowledge, no one has done this with Multics before. A small session transcript follows at the end of this message (sorry, no PL/1). It's not fast, so one definitely comes to appreciate the brevity of expression in the interface. While I was at it, I also installed TOPS-20 on an emulated DECSYSTEM-20 and got it talking over AX.25 as well. Now, I'd like to set up an interface reminiscent of a PAD or TIP allowing access to all of these machines, muxing a single SSID. Sadly I have no idea what the user interface for those things looked like: if anyone has pointers I can use to craft some software, I'd be happy to hear about it! Pointless perhaps, but fun! - Dan C. PS: I'm happy to set folks up with accounts, if they'd like. Shoot me an email with your call sign. If you're in the greater Boston area, try KZ2X-1 and KX2X-3 on 145.090 MHz. ###CONNECTED TO NODE BROCK(W1MV-7) CHANNEL A Welcome to BROCK (W1MV-7) in Brockton, Mass ENTER COMMAND: B,C,J,N, or Help ? C KZ2X-3 ###LINK MADE Trying 44.44.107.8... Connected to sim.kz2x.ampr.org. Escape character is 'off'. HSLA Port (d.h001,d.h002,d.h003,d.h004,d.h005,d.h006,d.h007,d.h008,d.h009,d.h010,d.h011,d.h012,d.h013,d.h014,d.h015,d.h016,d.h017,d.h018,d.h019,d.h020 ,d.h021,d.h022,d.h023,d.h024,d.h025,d.h026,d.h027,d.h028,d.h029,d.h030,d.h031)? Attached to line d.h001 Multics MR12.7: KZ2X Multics (Channel d.h001) Load = 6.0 out of 90.0 units: users = 6, 12/21/21 1718.0 est Tue login KZ2X Password: You are protected from preemption until 17:18. KZ2X.Ham logged in 12/21/21 1718.6 est Tue from ASCII terminal "none". Last login 12/21/21 1717.0 est Tue from ASCII terminal "none". No mail. r 17:18 0.376 54 ls Segments = 5, Lengths = 4. r w 1 KZ2X.profile r w 1 start_up.ec r w 1 hello.pl1 0 KZ2X.mbx r w 1 KZ2X.value r 17:19 0.022 0 who -a -lg Multics MR12.7; KZ2X Multics Load = 7.0 out of 90.0 units; users = 7, 2 interactive, 5 daemons. Absentee users = 0 background; Max background absentee users = 3 System up since 12/21/21 0922.8 est Tue Last shutdown was at 12/21/21 0917.8 est Tue Login at TTY Load User ID 12/21/21 09:22 cord 1.0 IO.SysDaemon 09:22 bk 1.0 Backup.SysDaemon 09:22 prta 1.0 IO.SysDaemon 09:22 ut 1.0 Utility.SysDaemon 09:22 vinc 1.0 Volume_Dumper.Daemon 16:41 none 1.0 Cross.SysEng 17:18 none 1.0 KZ2X.Ham r 17:19 0.036 0 logout KZ2X.Ham logged out 12/21/21 1722.9 est Tue CPU usage 0 sec, memory usage 0.2 units, cost $0.12. ###DISCONNECTED BY KZ2X-3 AT NODE BROCK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From athornton at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 00:51:34 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2021 07:51:34 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? In-Reply-To: <5D8BA976A496FD8E3AEFB6C9153250F0.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> References: <5D8BA976A496FD8E3AEFB6C9153250F0.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> Message-ID: MacOS finally pushed me to zsh. So I went all the way and installed oh-my-zsh. It makes me feel very dirty, and I have a two-line prompt (!!), but I can't deny it's convenient. tickets/DM-32983 ✗ adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ (and in my terminal, the X glyph next to my git branch showing the status is dirty is red while the branch name is green) and if something doesn't exit with rc=0... adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ fart zsh: command not found: fart tickets/DM-32983 ✗127 ⚠️ adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ Then I also get the little warning glyph and the rc of the last command in my prompt. But then I'm also now using Fira Code with ligatures in my terminal, so I've pretty much gone full Red Lightsaber. Adam On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 7:41 AM Norman Wilson wrote: > Thomas Paulsen: > > bash is clearly more advanced. ksh is retro computing. > > ==== > > Shell wars are, in the end, no more interesting than editor wars. > > I use bash on Linux systems because it's the least-poorly > supported of the Bourne-family shells, besides which bash > is there by default. Ksh isn't. > > I use ksh on OpenBSD systems because it's the least-poorly > supported of the Bourne-family shells, besides which kh > is there by default. Bash isn't. > > I don't actually care for most of the extra crap in either > of those shells. I don't want my shell to do line editing > or auto-completion, and I find the csh-derived history > mechanisms more annoying than useful so I turn them off > too. To my mind, the Research 10/e sh had it about right, > including the simple way functions were exported and the > whatis built-in that told you whether something was a > variable or a shell function or an external executable, > and printed the first two in forms easily edited on the > screen and re-used. > > Terminal programs that don't let you easily edit input > or output from the screen and re-send it, and programs > that abet them by spouting gratuitous ANSI control > sequences: now THAT's what I call retro-computing. > > Probably further discussion of any of this belongs in > COFF. > > Norman Wilson > Toronto ON > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From akosela at andykosela.com Thu Dec 23 16:59:57 2021 From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:59:57 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? (was: ksh88 source code?) Message-ID: On 12/22/21, Adam Thornton wrote: > MacOS finally pushed me to zsh. So I went all the way and installed > oh-my-zsh. It makes me feel very dirty, and I have a two-line prompt (!!), > but I can't deny it's convenient. > > tickets/DM-32983 ✗ > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ > > (and in my terminal, the X glyph next to my git branch showing the status > is dirty is red while the branch name is green) > > and if something doesn't exit with rc=0... > > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ fart > zsh: command not found: fart > tickets/DM-32983 ✗127 ⚠️ > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ > > Then I also get the little warning glyph and the rc of the last command in > my prompt. > > But then I'm also now using Fira Code with ligatures in my terminal, so > I've pretty much gone full Red Lightsaber. I try to keep my prompt as simple as possible. For years I have been using: moon $ That 's it. No fancy colors, not even displaying current working directory. I have an alias 'p' for that. --Andy From jpl.jpl at gmail.com Thu Dec 23 22:04:57 2021 From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 07:04:57 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? (was: ksh88 source code?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been a "fancy prompt" fan for decades. It started when I got (possibly the first) CRT (HP2641?) at Bell Labs with command re-entry capability. I put a @ at the end of my prompt, so when I re-entered a line, the prompt itself would disappear (@ was the default line-kill character in the pre-internet era). As it got possible to make ksh prompts fancier, I put a newline at the end of the prompt, and used command number, host name, and working directory, color coded (although that may well not show up): 1896 jpl:/home/jpl/Downloads Easy to visually distinguish prompts from commands, and copy/paste commands. And I jiggered a local cd command to put user at host ptty current-directory window-size in the terminal window title. Handier before I retired, when I had many hosts I might be visiting with ssh. Overkill, arguably, but CPU cycles are cheap now. On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 2:00 AM Andy Kosela wrote: > On 12/22/21, Adam Thornton wrote: > > MacOS finally pushed me to zsh. So I went all the way and installed > > oh-my-zsh. It makes me feel very dirty, and I have a two-line prompt > (!!), > > but I can't deny it's convenient. > > > > tickets/DM-32983 ✗ > > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ > > > > (and in my terminal, the X glyph next to my git branch showing the status > > is dirty is red while the branch name is green) > > > > and if something doesn't exit with rc=0... > > > > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ fart > > zsh: command not found: fart > > tickets/DM-32983 ✗127 ⚠️ > > adam at m1-wired:~/git/jenkins-dm-jobs$ > > > > Then I also get the little warning glyph and the rc of the last command > in > > my prompt. > > > > But then I'm also now using Fira Code with ligatures in my terminal, so > > I've pretty much gone full Red Lightsaber. > > I try to keep my prompt as simple as possible. For years I have been > using: > > moon $ > > That 's it. No fancy colors, not even displaying current working > directory. I have an alias 'p' for that. > > --Andy > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cowan at ccil.org Fri Dec 24 02:14:25 2021 From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:14:25 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? In-Reply-To: References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: -tuhs +coff On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 1:30 AM wrote: > As a vendor or distributor, you would care. Anyone doing an OS or other > software distribution (think the BSDs, of course; There is no legal reason why the BSDs can't distribute GPLed software; indeed, they did so for many years. Their objection is purely ideological. > but also think Apple or > Microsoft) needs to care. Apple and Microsoft can buy up, outspend, out-lawyer, or just outwait anyone suing them for infringement. Their only reasons for not doing so are reputational. > Anyone selling a hardware device with embedded > software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think consumer > devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care. Only if they are determined to infringe. Obeying the GPL's rules (most often for BusyBox) is straightforward, and the vast majority of infringers (per the FSF's legal team) are not aware that they have done anything wrong and are willing to comply once notified, which cures the defect (much less of a penalty than for most infringements). The ex-infringers do not seem to consider this a serious competitive disadvantage. GPL licensors are generous sharers, but you have to be willing to share yourself. I saw this dynamic in action while working for Reuters; we were licensing our health-related news to websites, and I would occasionally google for fragments of our articles. When I found one on a site I didn't recognize, I'd pass the website to Sales, who would sweetly point out that infringement could cost them up to $15,000 per article, and for a very reasonable price.... They were happy to sign up once they were made aware that just because something is available on the Internet doesn't mean you can republish it on your site. GPL (or similar "virally" > licensed) software carries legal implications for anyone selling or > distributing products that contain such software; and this can be a > motivation to use software with less-restrictive license terms. Only to the victims of FUD. Reusing source code is one thing: repackaging programs is another. I'll say no more about this here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Dec 24 03:33:29 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 10:33:29 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? In-Reply-To: References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 9:14 AM John Cowan wrote: > -tuhs +coff > > On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 1:30 AM wrote: > > >> As a vendor or distributor, you would care. Anyone doing an OS or other >> software distribution (think the BSDs, of course; > > > There is no legal reason why the BSDs can't distribute GPLed software; > indeed, they did so for many years. Their objection is purely ideological. > However, not all of our downstreams could, however. So it's also a practical consideration. Also, some left over anger from the early days when BSD software would sometimes have the copyrights removed and be GPL'd. Thankfully, all the old cases of that were resolved years ago. Anyone selling a hardware device with embedded >> software (think switches/routers; think IOT devices; think consumer >> devices like DVRs; etc) needs to care. > > > Only if they are determined to infringe. Obeying the GPL's rules (most > often for BusyBox) is straightforward, and the vast majority of infringers > (per the FSF's legal team) are not aware that they have done anything wrong > and are willing to comply once notified, which cures the defect (much less > of a penalty than for most infringements). The ex-infringers do not seem > to consider this a serious competitive disadvantage. GPL licensors are > generous sharers, but you have to be willing to share yourself. > Except it's easier to just use software where there's not a compliance issue. Regardless of the altruism of the GPL licensors, easier is a competitive advantage. It's taken about 15 years from the initial busy-box suits for supply chains to catch up with the proper provenance so that downstreams know they are getting the proper sources. GPL (or similar "virally" >> licensed) software carries legal implications for anyone selling or >> distributing products that contain such software; and this can be a >> motivation to use software with less-restrictive license terms. > > > Only to the victims of FUD. Reusing source code is one thing: repackaging > programs is another. > Having been on the other side of this (a GPL shakedown that was improper), I'd say it's more than just FUD. The GPL is cool and all, but it isn't all roses and sunshine. Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Fri Dec 24 03:44:29 2021 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:44:29 -0800 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? In-Reply-To: References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20211223174429.GD24180@mcvoy.com> On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 10:33:29AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > The GPL is cool and all, but it isn't all roses and sunshine. +100%. The FSF has a nasty habit of just taking over GPLed software and acting like they produced. Groff is an example, there are lots of others. The GPL is fine, the FSF is pretty corrupt in my opinion. From cowan at ccil.org Fri Dec 24 04:02:26 2021 From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:02:26 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Photos of University Computer Labs - now off topic In-Reply-To: <0531de6e-6c93-bdde-9ee4-cd4ab1f54e0b@csp-partnership.co.uk> References: <818A6F70-D117-471A-9E08-E37B34F8FAE0@mac.com> <20211223021805.GK24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223141958.GR24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223160011.GS24180@mcvoy.com> <3915e4db-6740-9777-03f4-4c6b4c09045c@csp-partnership.co.uk> <20211223163532.GW24180@mcvoy.com> <0531de6e-6c93-bdde-9ee4-cd4ab1f54e0b@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: -tuhs +coff On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 11:47 AM Dr Iain Maoileoin < iain at csp-partnership.co.uk> wrote: I totally agree. My question is about language use (or drift) - nothing > else. In Scotland - amongst the young - "Arithmetic" is now referred > to as "Maths". I am aware of the transition but cant understand what > caused it to happen! I dont know if other countries had/have the same > slide from a specific to a general - hence the questions - nothing deeper. > Language change is inexplicable in general. About all we know is that some directions of change are more likely than others: we no more know *why* language changes than we know *why* the laws of physics are what they are. Both widening (_dog_ once meant 'mastiff') and narrowing (_deer_ once meant 'animal') are among the commonest forms of semantic change. In particular, in the 19C _arithmetic_ meant 'number theory', and so the part concerned with the computation of "ambition, distraction, uglification, and derision" (Lewis Carroll) was _elementary arithmetic_. (Before that it was _algorism_.) When _higher arithmetic_ got its own name, the _elementary_ part was dropped in accordance with Grice's Maxim of Quantity ("be as informative as you can, giving as much information as necessary, but no more"). This did not happen to _algebra_, which still can mean either elementary or abstract algebra, still less to _geometry_. In addition, from the teacher's viewpoint school mathematics is a continuum, including the elementary parts of arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and in recent times probability theory and statistics, for which there is no name other than _ mathematics_ when taken collectively. > In lower secondary school we would go to both Arithmetic AND also to > Maths classes. > What was taught in the latter? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cowan at ccil.org Fri Dec 24 04:18:39 2021 From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 13:18:39 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? In-Reply-To: <20211223174429.GD24180@mcvoy.com> References: <20201222224306.GA28478@minnie.tuhs.org> <202012230546.0BN5kDwe028815@sdf.org> <1653639b-8e41-7437-8c0e-32564dfdd788@laposte.net> <20211221162139.GP24180@mcvoy.com> <9e3b9669-6ffc-2701-bdcb-e287495419c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20211223174429.GD24180@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 12:44 PM Larry McVoy wrote: +100%. The FSF has a nasty habit of just taking over GPLed software and > acting like they produced. Groff is an example, there are lots of others. How's that? James Clark donated the groff copyright to the FSF in 1991, and they released it under the GPL 1.0 or later (since upgraded). It's as much theirs as any software is anybody's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 05:14:25 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:14:25 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS -> COFF] Photos of University Computer Labs - now off topic In-Reply-To: <20211223160011.GS24180@mcvoy.com> References: <818A6F70-D117-471A-9E08-E37B34F8FAE0@mac.com> <20211223021805.GK24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223141958.GR24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223160011.GS24180@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <0a0c1120-c7d6-bf9a-4416-74a719e17c18@gmail.com> On 2021-12-23 11:00, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Thu, Dec 23, 2021 at 03:29:18PM +0000, Dr Iain Maoileoin wrote: >>> Probably boomer doing math wrong. >> I might get flamed for this comment, but is a number divided by a number not >> arithmetic.?? I cant see any maths in there. > That's just a language thing, lots of people in the US call arithmetic > math. I'm 100% positive that that is not just me. Classes in elementary grades are called "math classes"  (but then there is Serre's book). N. From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 05:30:43 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:30:43 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? (was: ksh88 source code?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-12-23 01:59, Andy Kosela wrote: > On 12/22/21, Adam Thornton wrote (in part): >> MacOS finally pushed me to zsh. So I went all the way and installed >> oh-my-zsh. It makes me feel very dirty, and I have a two-line prompt (!!), >> but I can't deny it's convenient. >> > I try to keep my prompt as simple as possible. For years I have been using: > > moon $ > > That 's it. No fancy colors, not even displaying current working > directory. I have an alias 'p' for that. export PS1="\! [\W]=> " (mixing various historical references). N. From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Fri Dec 24 13:46:33 2021 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:46:33 +0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] ksh88 source code? Message-ID: Still using ksh on HP-UX 11.31 on an rx2660 Itanium based server :-) -- The more I learn the better I understand I know nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 20211224 using ksh.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 157307 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sat Dec 25 03:17:07 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 10:17:07 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/22/21 11:59 PM, Andy Kosela wrote: > What is your prompt? Pre-Script: Seeing as how this is COFF and it's supposed to be a slow day at work (holding down the fort while others celebrate) I'll chime in. What follows is what the type of thing that I'd be interested in reading from others. I've been a *LONG* *TIME* advocate for having at the very minimum 1) the (current) username and 2) the hostname in the prompt. This became exceedingly apparent at my last job with a bunch of junior admins, too many of which (read: > 0), inadvertently issued commands as the wrong user and / or on the wrong host. I personally like having the current working directory in the prompt. After some other incidents at my previous job, I started advocating for having the leading character in the prompt be a "#" so that most shells would not interpret it as a command pasted with trailing carriage return. This brings me to the quintessential Bash / Zsh PS1 prompt of: PS1="#[\u@\h:\w]\$ " The square brackets are effectively eye candy. The \$ evaluates to indication of if you're running as a normal user or root. It's largely superfluous with \u in the prompt. But it makes things uniform and reduces questions when others are learning things. When I migrated to Zsh, my prompt got a bit more complex. The base prompt in a new terminal window still looks mostly the same as the above PS1. The biggest difference is that I use Zsh's RPROMPT for transient things like the previous commands return code ($?) and date & time (the prompt was printed). The RPROMPT has the nice feature of it leaves the screen when when the current command is executed, thus it doesn't clutter screen scroll back. I'm leveraging Zsh's conditional prompt features to make the return code ($?) stand out in bright white on bright red when $? != 0. My shell initialization files conditionally set various environment variables which are used in the prompt. Conditionally on things like: - the TERM type - my terminal emulator's answer back - used for terminal specific features - shell level - if the shell is forked from inside of screen / tmux - if the shell is forked from inside of vim Depending on the TERM type and my terminal's answer back I'll either include control sequences to set the window title to (simplified version of) the PS1 prompt. This way I have a good idea from the window title when selecting minimized windows from lists, where the terminal therein is. I'm leveraging Zsh's preexec() function to conditionally set the window title to the command that's being executed if answer back indicates a supported terminal emulator. I'm comparing the host name to the value of answer back to set the prompt color as a simple indicator if I'm on my local system or not. - Green = terminal to local system - Yellow = terminal to a non-local system - Red = terminal as root window somewhere, BE CAREFUL So ... my Zsh prompt has a fair bit behind it. But the bulk of what's printed is still the comment character, the username, the hostname, the current working directory, and the (non)root indicator. One deviation is that I now have my root prompt (via sudo / su) slightly different in that after the effective user name, root, the prompt also includes my real user name in parenthesis. #[root(gtaylor)@host:~]# As I do more with containers, I'm getting ready to implement a similar permutation on the host portion such that the host name portion reflects the container's / network namespace's value of \h with parent host OS's name in side of parenthesis, much like the effective / logged in user pair. #[root(gtaylor)@netns(host):~]# Post-Script: Happy holidays. Here's hoping that things are going well for you and yours. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Sat Dec 25 12:50:15 2021 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:50:15 +0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? Message-ID: On my Windows 11 notebook with WSL2 + Linux I got as default rubl at DESKTOP-NQR082T:~$ echo $PS1 \[\e]0;\u@\h: \w\a\]${debian_chroot:+($debian_chroot)}\[\033[01;32m\]\u@ \h\[\033[00m\]:\[\033[01;34m\]\w\[\033[00m\]\$ rubl at DESKTOP-NQR082T:~$ uname -a Linux DESKTOP-NQR082T 5.10.74.3-microsoft-standard-WSL2+ #4 SMP Sun Dec 19 16:25:10 +07 2021 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux rubl at DESKTOP-NQR082T:~$ -- The more I learn the better I understand I know nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tytso at mit.edu Sat Dec 25 14:40:56 2021 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 23:40:56 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here are examples of some of my prompts. It does use two lines, but the extra context is worth it to me: {/home/tytso} 267% cd /usr/projects/e2fsprogs/base {/usr/projects/e2fsprogs/base} (BARE:master) 268% cd /usr/projects/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-maint {/usr/projects/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-maint} (maint) 269% git lgt -1 * 45295a35 - (HEAD -> maint, origin/maint) setup-schroot: add some additional packages needed to build debian packages (3 days ago) {/usr/projects/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-maint} (maint) 270% schroot -c buster-amd64 Top-level shell (parent schroot) {/usr/projects/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-maint} 1% logout {/usr/projects/e2fsprogs/e2fsprogs-maint} (maint) 271% cd {/home/tytso} 272% su Password: {/home/tytso}, level 2 1001# bash {/home/tytso}, level 3 1001# exit {/home/tytso}, level 2 1002# exit {/home/tytso} 273% ssh imap.thunk.org Linux imap.thunk.org 5.10.13-x86_64-linode141 #1 SMP Thu Feb 4 13:56:42 EST 2021 x86_64 Last login: Sat Dec 25 04:33:54 2021 from 108.7.220.252 {/home/tytso} 501% logout Connection to imap.thunk.org closed. From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sun Dec 26 03:39:48 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 18:39:48 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211225173948.mQ8KS%steffen@sdaoden.eu> I might be the only living one who has the expansion of $? in $PS1. (And who's "~/.shrc" gives a _somewhat_ portable PS1 with last-component-of HOSTNAME and PWD.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 26 04:28:05 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 11:28:05 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211225173948.mQ8KS%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20211225173948.mQ8KS%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <517271a2-c18c-f6b2-e5a8-0f93b2accba7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/25/21 10:39 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > I might be the only living one who has the expansion of $? in $PS1. It's not $PS1, but I do have $? in my Zsh $RPROMPT. I used to have $? in $PS1 before switching to $RPROMPT. > (And who's "~/.shrc" gives a _somewhat_ portable PS1 with > last-component-of HOSTNAME and PWD.) I'd like to know more. I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but portability across platforms (OSs / architectures) is much less of an issue for me than it was in my last job. Now I mostly worry about Linux and FreeBSD. Admittedly, some really old versions. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sun Dec 26 05:14:37 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 20:14:37 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <517271a2-c18c-f6b2-e5a8-0f93b2accba7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20211225173948.mQ8KS%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <517271a2-c18c-f6b2-e5a8-0f93b2accba7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20211225191437.bKBLU%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Grant Taylor wrote in <517271a2-c18c-f6b2-e5a8-0f93b2accba7 at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>: |On 12/25/21 10:39 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> I might be the only living one who has the expansion of $? in $PS1. | |It's not $PS1, but I do have $? in my Zsh $RPROMPT. | |I used to have $? in $PS1 before switching to $RPROMPT. | |> (And who's "~/.shrc" gives a _somewhat_ portable PS1 with |> last-component-of HOSTNAME and PWD.) | |I'd like to know more. | |I don't know if it's a good thing or not, but portability across |platforms (OSs / architectures) is much less of an issue for me than it |was in my last job. Now I mostly worry about Linux and FreeBSD. |Admittedly, some really old versions. Sure. Oh the compatibility of shells i meant, of course. But that mostly colours, now that ~/.profile ensures HOSTNAME and LOGNAME per se. No more \XY escapes here, except \e and the \[..\] that some need (to get it column counting right, with colours) (SHTYPE=bash and =yash). And the "set -o" you need/can to get where you want to be, ksh for example braceexpand, emacs-usemeta (if possible), expand_aliases (bash), cdprint/emacs/tabcomplete (NetBSD ksh). It is of course all a bitrot-affine compatibility mess. You look for $0, sometimes deeper for some *_VERSION, for $OSTYPE (which my ~/.profile sets, too). But in the end it is all a mess. If i recall correctly i once proposed a standardized VERSION or xy thing so that one could easily identify, even in subshells. But that would affect future shells only, anyhow. At one time i have thrown away a lot of tests, since fish and some other shells i will never use no more, what remains is just enough to start working the best i can with dash, bash, ksh. Last change on PS1 in March 2018, i usually only have one account per $HOSTNAME. Pretty bitter is shells without aliases, where the a-lia-ses have to be created as sh_ell_functions. And then one says builtin, the other says built-in. Yeah i mean computing would be nice, if there would not be those uncountable quirks you need in real life. The maintainer of libinput has written a short down-to-earth article on that a few years ago. That reminds me of my bitter gut feeling that something bad will happen, all these days, but luckily the rocket that carried some real penis lifted successfully. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From grog at lemis.com Sun Dec 26 09:19:41 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 10:19:41 +1100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 23:40:56 -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > Here are examples of some of my prompts. It does use two lines, but > the extra context is worth it to me: > > {/home/tytso} > 267% cd /usr/projects/e2fsprogs/base That's actually surprisingly like mine, though I squeeze it into one line. Like you, I find user, system and cwd important, but also the tty. In addition I put a marker to help find prompts in long output, so a typical prompt might be: === grog at bilbo (/dev/pts/27) ~/src 6 -> That's generated with PS1="\[ESC[34m\]=== \u@\h (`tty`) \[ESC[31m\]\w\[ESC[34m\] \# ->\[ESC[30m\]\[ESC[47m\] " > 272% su > Password: > {/home/tytso}, level 2 That's interesting. How do you do that? Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sun Dec 26 09:43:37 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 00:43:37 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote in <20211225231941.GB83649 at eureka.lemis.com>: |On Friday, 24 December 2021 at 23:40:56 -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote: |> Here are examples of some of my prompts. It does use two lines, but |> the extra context is worth it to me: |> |> {/home/tytso} |> 267% cd /usr/projects/e2fsprogs/base | |That's actually surprisingly like mine, though I squeeze it into one |line. Like you, I find user, system and cwd important, but also the |tty. In addition I put a marker to help find prompts in long output, |so a typical prompt might be: | | === grog at bilbo (/dev/pts/27) ~/src 6 -> | |That's generated with | | PS1="\[ESC[34m\]=== \u@\h (`tty`) \[ESC[31m\]\w\[ESC[34m\] \# ->\[ESC[30\ | m\]\[ESC[47m\] " | |> 272% su |> Password: |> {/home/tytso}, level 2 | |That's interesting. How do you do that? Looks like bash(1)'s $SHLVL to me. I always stumble over the OpenCSW.org ssh(1) logins, they set ignoreeof by default. That is how strange things go, in the shell i hate that, in my mailer i have that and furthermore even commandalias q 'echo You do not want to quit, do you?' and that happens several times a week. I mean i have [ "${UID}" -eq 0 ] && PS1='#' || PS1='$' if ( [ "${HISTSIZE##84}" = 42 ] ) > /dev/null 2>&1; then # bash(1)/*ksh(1)? if [ -n "${___SHTYPE}" ] || [ -n "${PWD}" ]; then PS1="${ps1s}#?\$?${j}|${HOSTNAME%%.*}:\${PWD##*/}${PS1}${ps1e} " else PS1="${ps1s}#${j}${HOSTNAME%%.*}:${ps1W}${PS1}${ps1e} " fi else PS1="${ps1s}#${j}${HOSTNAME}${PS1}${ps1e} " fi PS2='> ' export PS1 PS2 Where all the ps1* series was detected earlier, for colour, like ps1s="\[\e[31m\]" ps1S="\[\e[38;5;203m\]" ps1e="\[\e[0m\]" for bash or eval "ps1s=\$'\e[31m' ps1S=\$'\e[38;5;203m' ps1e=\$'\e[0m'" for mksh (to get around bugs it had sometime, and were fixed, some get fixed by Thorsten), as well as ps1s="^[[31m" ps1S="^[[38;5;203m" ps1e="^[[0m" # XXX \e <> OpenBSD?$ and here ^[ is indeed the fully expanded \e for those ksh's which cannot. The $j is for shells not running in tmux, where i have a status line with lots of infos, to get load average [ -f /proc/loadavg ] && j="(\$(cut -f1,4 -d' ' /proc/loadavg))" I forgot busybox sh(1) in the listing. ps1W is \W for FreeBSD and DragonFly ash(1) things. Hm. Maybe i have to un-bitrot that by retesting against all shells again, it has been years, and lots of programming happens. I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and forget about it thereafter. A nice rest-Christmas for all Christians, shall there be some left which Jesus would not throw out of the temple, actually, that is. :) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 26 13:29:31 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 20:29:31 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <5cdc88d0-f440-188d-7da8-dfdeae56ec0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/25/21 4:19 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > Like you, I find user, system and cwd important, but also > the tty. I'm curious, what use do you have for the TTY information? How do you use it in your day to day activities in the shell? > In addition I put a marker to help find prompts in long output, Yep. I think the leading hash in my PS1 does similar for me. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 26 13:44:03 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 20:44:03 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211225191437.bKBLU%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20211225173948.mQ8KS%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <517271a2-c18c-f6b2-e5a8-0f93b2accba7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20211225191437.bKBLU%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <09230a13-9700-8769-d508-30a2c07f0eec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/25/21 12:14 PM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Sure. Oh the compatibility of shells i meant, of course. But that > mostly colours, now that ~/.profile ensures HOSTNAME and LOGNAME > per se. No more \XY escapes here, except \e and the \[..\] that some > need (to get it column counting right, with colours) (SHTYPE=bash > and =yash). Printing vs non-printing characters are important. > You look for $0, sometimes deeper for some *_VERSION, for $OSTYPE > (which my ~/.profile sets, too). But in the end it is all a mess. Hum. I've not thought about trying to tease that information out of environment variables. Instead, I create my own environment variables and populate them from various $(uname ...) output. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From grog at lemis.com Sun Dec 26 13:54:42 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 14:54:42 +1100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <09230a13-9700-8769-d508-30a2c07f0eec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5cdc88d0-f440-188d-7da8-dfdeae56ec0c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20211226035442.GC83649@eureka.lemis.com> On Saturday, 25 December 2021 at 20:29:31 -0700, COFF wrote: > On 12/25/21 4:19 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> Like you, I find user, system and cwd important, but also >> the tty. > > I'm curious, what use do you have for the TTY information? If I have a process misbehaving on that tty, I can use the information to run ps against the tty. It's not exactly a daily occurrence, but it's convenient when it's needed. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Dec 26 15:27:35 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2021 22:27:35 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211226035442.GC83649@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211226035442.GC83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: On 12/25/21 8:54 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > If I have a process misbehaving on that tty, I can use the information > to run ps against the tty. It's not exactly a daily occurrence, > but it's convenient when it's needed. Ah, pre-fetching diagnostic information in preparation for the off hand chance that you need it. Thank you for explaining. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From tytso at mit.edu Mon Dec 27 07:18:03 2021 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:18:03 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:43:37AM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and > forget about it thereafter. I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST account, I run a comand like this: % git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . % cd dotfiles % make This installs a bunch of symlinks from dotfiles/{.bashrc,.profile,.muttrc}, etc. to $HOME/. That way, I can run "git pull" to update my dotfiles on one particular machine, and if I make local changes, I'll do a "git push" to send them back to my dotfiles repo. The Makefile I have in my top-level repo some folks might find interesting: .PHONY: all bin dotfiles all: dotfiles DIRS= .gnupg .mutt .config/gce-xfstests .config/gcloud/configurations bin em #DBG= echo dotfiles: for file in $(shell find $(CURDIR) -maxdepth 1 -type f -name ".*" \ -not -name ".*~" -not -name ".gitignore" -print); do \ f=$$(basename $$file); \ if test -f $(HOME)/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$f ; then \ mkdir -p backup ; \ mv $(HOME)/$$f backup ; \ fi ; \ $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$f; \ done for dir in $(DIRS) ; do \ $(DBG) mkdir -p $(HOME)/$$dir ; \ for file in $$(find $$(pwd)/$$dir -maxdepth 1 -type f \ -not -name "*~" -print); do \ f=$$(basename $$file); \ if test -f $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f ; then \ mkdir -p backup/$$dir ; \ mv $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f backup/$$dir ; \ fi ; \ $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f; \ done; \ done if test -d backup ; then find backup -type f -print ; fi Cheers, - Ted From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Dec 27 07:33:03 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 14:33:03 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 2:18 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:43:37AM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > > I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and > > forget about it thereafter. > > I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST > account, I run a comand like this: > > % git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . > I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is little point. I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other SCMs it would likely not be paranoid enough. Warner % cd dotfiles > % make > > This installs a bunch of symlinks from > dotfiles/{.bashrc,.profile,.muttrc}, etc. to $HOME/. > > That way, I can run "git pull" to update my dotfiles on one particular > machine, and if I make local changes, I'll do a "git push" to send > them back to my dotfiles repo. > > The Makefile I have in my top-level repo some folks might find > interesting: > > .PHONY: all bin dotfiles > > all: dotfiles > > DIRS= .gnupg .mutt .config/gce-xfstests .config/gcloud/configurations bin > em > #DBG= echo > > dotfiles: > for file in $(shell find $(CURDIR) -maxdepth 1 -type f -name ".*" \ > -not -name ".*~" -not -name ".gitignore" -print); do \ > f=$$(basename $$file); \ > if test -f $(HOME)/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$f ; then \ > mkdir -p backup ; \ > mv $(HOME)/$$f backup ; \ > fi ; \ > $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$f; \ > done > for dir in $(DIRS) ; do \ > $(DBG) mkdir -p $(HOME)/$$dir ; \ > for file in $$(find $$(pwd)/$$dir -maxdepth 1 -type f \ > -not -name "*~" -print); do \ > f=$$(basename $$file); \ > if test -f $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f ; > then \ > mkdir -p backup/$$dir ; \ > mv $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f backup/$$dir ; \ > fi ; \ > $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f; \ > done; \ > done > if test -d backup ; then find backup -type f -print ; fi > > Cheers, > > - Ted > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mike.ab3ap at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 08:17:07 2021 From: mike.ab3ap at gmail.com (Mike Markowski) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:17:07 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > On 12/22/21 11:59 PM, Andy Kosela wrote: > What is your prompt? I prefer minimalism: export PS1="\h$ " Similarly, in ham radio I prefer CW (Morse code). :-) Mike Markowski -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tytso at mit.edu Mon Dec 27 11:33:13 2021 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:33:13 -0500 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 02:33:03PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per > os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in > recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like > this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is little > point. I have a bunch of work-specific aliases which get picked up via: if [ -f $HOME/.bashrc.local ] ; then . $HOME/.bashrc.local fi I don't keep .bashrc.local under git control, since some of the paths in those aliases might be considered Work-confidential, so I don't want to push them out to a personal git repo. > I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes > oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other > SCMs it would likely not be paranoid enough. The backup directory isn't for paranoia, actually. It's so the first time that I install my custom dotfiles on a particular machine, if there is a prexisting dot-file, say, .profile, I copy it to the backup directory before replacing it with a symlink to the dotfiles repo. There might be some magic environment variables or PATH setup that is unique to that particular system's default dot files, so I can take a quick look at them and see if I might need to extend my generic dot files, or maybe add something to the ~/.bashrc.local file, or some such. - Ted From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 12:52:24 2021 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:52:24 +0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: My official status seems a bit unclear (although I'm getting paid :-) ) but unofficially I keep an eye on a lot of a customers servers. Ad-hoc shell scripts still have similar structure as I know how to 'cut and paste'. These scripts are run remotely via a 'homegrown' client-server setup. Many should run on different UNIX environments and therefore have near the beginning an OS check. Depending on that I can set PATH and anything else important. # # check what type of OS this system runs on # OST=`uname -m` case ${OST} in "i386") OST="SCO" ... ;; "alpha") OST="ALP" ... ;; "ia64") OST="HPU" ... ;; *) echo "unknown OS type ${OST} ... \c" exit 1 ;; esac On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 08:33, Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 02:33:03PM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per > > os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in > > recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like > > this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is > little > > point. > > I have a bunch of work-specific aliases which get picked up via: > > if [ -f $HOME/.bashrc.local ] ; then > . $HOME/.bashrc.local > fi > > I don't keep .bashrc.local under git control, since some of the paths > in those aliases might be considered Work-confidential, so I don't > want to push them out to a personal git repo. > > > I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes > > oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other > > SCMs it would likely not be paranoid enough. > > The backup directory isn't for paranoia, actually. It's so the first > time that I install my custom dotfiles on a particular machine, if > there is a prexisting dot-file, say, .profile, I copy it to the backup > directory before replacing it with a symlink to the dotfiles repo. > > There might be some magic environment variables or PATH setup that is > unique to that particular system's default dot files, so I can take a > quick look at them and see if I might need to extend my generic dot > files, or maybe add something to the ~/.bashrc.local file, or some > such. > > - Ted > -- The more I learn the better I understand I know nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grog at lemis.com Mon Dec 27 13:43:21 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 14:43:21 +1100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20211227034321.GH83649@eureka.lemis.com> On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 9:52:24 +0700, Rudi Blom wrote: > My official status seems a bit unclear (although I'm getting paid :-) ) but > unofficially I keep an eye on a lot of a customers servers. Ad-hoc shell > scripts still have similar structure as I know how to 'cut and paste'. > > These scripts are run remotely via a 'homegrown' client-server setup. Many > should run on different UNIX environments and therefore have near the > beginning an OS check. Depending on that I can set PATH and anything else > important. > > # > # check what type of OS this system runs on > # > OST=`uname -m` That's the architecture. Wouldn't just `uname` be better? I have: case `uname` in Linux) PATH=.:~:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bitkeeper:/Photos/Tools export SHELL=/bin/bash ;; NetBSD) PATH=.:~:/usr/pkg/bin::/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bitkeeper:/usr/local/gnu-autotools/bin:~:/Photos/Tools export SHELL=/usr/pkg/bin/bash ;; FreeBSD) PATH=.:~:/home/local/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/Photos/Tools:~ export SHELL=/usr/local/bin/bash ;; ... And yes, lm, if you're looking, there's really a /usr/local/bitkeeper in there. It's been years, but I don't tidy these things up very often. I only just removed mosaic from my fvwm2 config menus. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:06:07 2021 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:06:07 +0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211227034321.GH83649@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227034321.GH83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: Just 'uname' is not specific enough. On SCO UNIX 3.2V4.2 uname defaults to 'uname -s'. On AlphaServer with Digital UNIX 4.0g or TRU64 V5.1B I get 'OSF1' as answer. On HP-UX 11.23/11.31 I get 'HP-UX'. Even if I do a 'uname -m' I may still do additional 'uname [-]' for other specifics. Of course a 'uname -a' and 'set -- $*' would be a possibility. On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 10:43, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 9:52:24 +0700, Rudi Blom wrote: > > My official status seems a bit unclear (although I'm getting paid :-) ) > but > > unofficially I keep an eye on a lot of a customers servers. Ad-hoc shell > > scripts still have similar structure as I know how to 'cut and paste'. > > > > These scripts are run remotely via a 'homegrown' client-server setup. > Many > > should run on different UNIX environments and therefore have near the > > beginning an OS check. Depending on that I can set PATH and anything else > > important. > > > > # > > # check what type of OS this system runs on > > # > > OST=`uname -m` > > That's the architecture. Wouldn't just `uname` be better? I have: > > case `uname` in > Linux) > > PATH=.:~:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bitkeeper:/Photos/Tools > export SHELL=/bin/bash > ;; > > NetBSD) > > PATH=.:~:/usr/pkg/bin::/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/usr/local/bitkeeper:/usr/local/gnu-autotools/bin:~:/Photos/Tools > export SHELL=/usr/pkg/bin/bash > ;; > > FreeBSD) > > PATH=.:~:/home/local/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/local/sbin:~/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/Photos/Tools:~ > export SHELL=/usr/local/bin/bash > ;; > ... > > And yes, lm, if you're looking, there's really a /usr/local/bitkeeper > in there. It's been years, but I don't tidy these things up very > often. I only just removed mosaic from my fvwm2 config menus. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > -- The more I learn the better I understand I know nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grog at lemis.com Mon Dec 27 14:12:30 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:12:30 +1100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227034321.GH83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20211227041230.GI83649@eureka.lemis.com> On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 11:06:07 +0700, Rudi Blom wrote: > Just 'uname' is not specific enough. On SCO UNIX 3.2V4.2 uname defaults to > 'uname -s'. On AlphaServer with Digital UNIX 4.0g or TRU64 V5.1B I get > 'OSF1' as answer. On HP-UX 11.23/11.31 I get 'HP-UX'. That looks good to me. And I thought that uname without parms always defaults to uname -s. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com Mon Dec 27 14:28:58 2021 From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:28:58 +0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211227041230.GI83649@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227034321.GH83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211227041230.GI83649@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: On SCO UNIX 3.2V4.2 'uname' defaults to 'uname -s' BUT for both the output is the server/host/node name. It's the "NODE" as found in /etc/conf/cf.d/stune and generated into the kernel. On DU/TRU64 'uname' defaults to 'uname -s', on HP-UX the same. On Mon, 27 Dec 2021 at 11:12, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 27 December 2021 at 11:06:07 +0700, Rudi Blom wrote: > > Just 'uname' is not specific enough. On SCO UNIX 3.2V4.2 uname defaults > to > > 'uname -s'. On AlphaServer with Digital UNIX 4.0g or TRU64 V5.1B I get > > 'OSF1' as answer. On HP-UX 11.23/11.31 I get 'HP-UX'. > > That looks good to me. And I thought that uname without parms always > defaults to uname -s. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > -- The more I learn the better I understand I know nothing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 28 04:37:15 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:37:15 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20211227183715.zL8YT%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Theodore Ts'o wrote in : |On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:43:37AM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and |> forget about it thereafter. | |I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST |account, I run a comand like this: | |% git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . |% cd dotfiles |% make | |This installs a bunch of symlinks from |dotfiles/{.bashrc,.profile,.muttrc}, etc. to $HOME/. | |That way, I can run "git pull" to update my dotfiles on one particular |machine, and if I make local changes, I'll do a "git push" to send |them back to my dotfiles repo. Negative.. but i have sort of this for root accounts, less any fancy make(1) mechanism, however, but there is ~/sic/root.git, and locally i merge/bundle according branches into machine specific branche(s) that can then be pushed/fetched. (My spare "wales" even simply selectively shares the filesystem via snapshots, it is just which /root/.git branch is checked out, and one "/root/bin/backup.sh restore" after FS synchronization; same shared static kernel, but different ssh keys and /etc/hosts, hostname via kernel command line, thanks to /dev/mapper even /etc/fstab is identical. I can git merge "kent" into "wales", and git just does it right!) I "only have symlinks" in my non-root ~/, but i have to create them manually. I do not have many accounts i work with: practically all VMs for building+testing software, so not much effort getting cosy there. Here on "kent" i created them on April 13th 2019, only added .irssi on April 22nd once i started using IRC, too. That is manageable. And all the directories that then exist nonetheless, ~/sic, ~/{,sec.}arena, ~/$USR (~/usr-kent-crux-linux-x86_64/{bin,lib..} here) are created by ~/.profile when i login the first time with the symlink tree present. (But of course they are empty, hm.) It all _is_ in a sec.arena/configs.git directory, but there is home/ as well as .home/ and some others, and only home/ content is to be distributed, so i go into that home and scp(1). The data in there is pretty stable, and what changes sometimes, for example my mailer's config when its development continues, or the .cwmrc just got a "pkill -CONT tmux" last week (^Z delivery sometimes hits tmux not the terminal within where it is typed), is needed only locally. But your approach is much nicer. Just to add that ~/sic is an encfs mount of ~/.sic, ~/.mozilla of ~/.secweb-mozilla (normal browsing container mounts a specific /home partition), and ~/sec.arena of ~/.sec.arena, only the latter two of which are permanently mounted when the lid is up. Really, i love what has become possible with modern hard- and software! |The Makefile I have in my top-level repo some folks might find |interesting: | |.PHONY: all bin dotfiles | |all: dotfiles | |DIRS= .gnupg .mutt .config/gce-xfstests .config/gcloud/configurations \ |bin em |#DBG= echo | |dotfiles: | for file in $(shell find $(CURDIR) -maxdepth 1 -type f -name ".*" \ | -not -name ".*~" -not -name ".gitignore" -print); do \ | f=$$(basename $$file); \ | if test -f $(HOME)/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$f ; then \ | mkdir -p backup ; \ | mv $(HOME)/$$f backup ; \ | fi ; \ | $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$f; \ | done | for dir in $(DIRS) ; do \ | $(DBG) mkdir -p $(HOME)/$$dir ; \ | for file in $$(find $$(pwd)/$$dir -maxdepth 1 -type f \ | -not -name "*~" -print); do \ | f=$$(basename $$file); \ | if test -f $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f -a ! -h $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f ; then \ | mkdir -p backup/$$dir ; \ | mv $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f backup/$$dir ; \ | fi ; \ | $(DBG) ln -sfn $$file $(HOME)/$$dir/$$f; \ | done; \ | done | if test -d backup ; then find backup -type f -print ; fi --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 28 04:44:12 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 19:44:12 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20211227184412.Tht0d%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Warner Losh wrote in : |On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 2:18 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: |> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:43:37AM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |>> I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and |>> forget about it thereafter. |> |> I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST |> account, I run a comand like this: |> |> % git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . | |I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per |os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in |recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like |this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is little |point. | |I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes |oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other Oh yes, i could not agree more. I never tried bitkeeper ;), but even after eleven years of git (~/calendar (symlink) just told me 12/24 Beschließe öffentliche Projekte mit GIT zu managen (2010) ) i often state "when have i told the last time that git is magnificent?" when it rebases automatically over long history, garbage-collects into one big pack (alongside those i want to .keep unchanged), or selectively distributes branches here and there. Wording spread they furtherly improved the merge algorithm just recently. |SCMs it would likely not be paranoid enough. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Dec 28 04:55:29 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 11:55:29 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: <20211227184412.Tht0d%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227184412.Tht0d%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:44 AM Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Warner Losh wrote in > : > |On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 2:18 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > |> On Sun, Dec 26, 2021 at 12:43:37AM +0100, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > |>> I usually do "scp .* HOST:" whenever i get a HOST account, and > |>> forget about it thereafter. > |> > |> I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST > |> account, I run a comand like this: > |> > |> % git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . > | > |I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per > |os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in > |recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like > |this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is > little > |point. > | > |I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes > |oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other > > Oh yes, i could not agree more. I never tried bitkeeper ;), but > even after eleven years of git (~/calendar (symlink) just told me > > 12/24 Beschließe öffentliche Projekte mit GIT zu managen (2010) > > ) i often state "when have i told the last time that git is > magnificent?" when it rebases automatically over long history, > garbage-collects into one big pack (alongside those i want to > .keep unchanged), or selectively distributes branches here and > there. Wording spread they furtherly improved the merge algorithm > just recently. > The first years of git were interesting times to be using it. After that it's been rock solid, especially relative to all the other tools out there. I have something similar to the .local stuff Ted does. In fact, I used to use exactly that pattern. However, I've taken to doing that via symlinks to the host name (so foo.host with multiple ones symlinked to the master if it comes to that). That way I could keep my local changes in version control... One to many client machines crashing and losing stuff in my past... Warner -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Dec 28 05:07:08 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 12:07:08 -0700 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227184412.Tht0d%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <1aa06132-37d7-126a-e490-5dce6d134ac8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 12/27/21 11:55 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > I've taken to doing that via symlinks to the host name (so foo.host > with multiple ones symlinked to the master if it comes to that). That > way I could keep my local changes in version control... One to many > client machines crashing and losing stuff in my past... I too use . where something is aliases, bashrc, zshrc, etc. I will also frequently have . source .. That way I can have $WORK specific things in .<$WORK> and personal things in .home, and accounts on friends systems source .. Thus I have things common to in one file. It means that machine specific . ends up being quite minimal. I could probably get away with (sym)links if I don't need /anything/ host specific. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Dec 28 05:25:45 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2021 20:25:45 +0100 Subject: [COFF] What is your prompt? In-Reply-To: References: <20211225231941.GB83649@eureka.lemis.com> <20211225234337.cWiBV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20211227184412.Tht0d%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20211227192545.QmevV%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Warner Losh wrote in : |On Mon, Dec 27, 2021 at 11:44 AM Steffen Nurpmeso |wrote: |> Warner Losh wrote in |> : |>|On Sun, Dec 26, 2021, 2:18 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: |>|> I keep a private git repo on one of my machines, so when I get a HOST |>|> account, I run a comand like this: |>|> |>|> % git clone ssh://tytso at example.com/home/tytso/repos/dotfiles . |>| |>|I have symlinks to all my files. I also have special hooks that I run per |>|os and per host to pull in different configs when needed. Though in |>|recent years I've not needed it much. I used to do a lot for work like |>|this, but these days work envs are close to my home env, so there is |> little |>|point. |>| |>|I've been doing this since RCS days across 5 different SCMs... git makes |>|oopses so rare that the paranoia below seems overkill. Though for other |> |> Oh yes, i could not agree more. I never tried bitkeeper ;), but |> even after eleven years of git (~/calendar (symlink) just told me ... |> 12/24 Beschließe öffentliche Projekte mit GIT zu managen (2010) ... |The first years of git were interesting times to be using it. After that |it's been rock solid, especially relative to all the other tools out there. "rebase --onto" never really worked for me until it then did, but it took long. They reversed the output of rev-parse at some time, i test for version 1.8 for the switch. The garbage collect memory window limit maybe now works .. and garbage collection took longer but required less memory in earlier times, i always see it on the OpenCSW.org cluster which uses git 2.4, 1.7.10.3 and what else, but the plan to build on old one just for gc i never put in practice; whether that today would still work, i do not know either, no hash but SHA-1 here still, however. I hated it bailed on breaking network connections, i do not know whether they fixed it, i am now behind datagram based VPN, and that "heals" that problem for me, practically always, luckily. It is a pain with a bad internet connection when huge downloads then break after say hundreds of megabytes, and cannot be restarted at the time it bailed. On the other hand i never tried to fix it, not even locally. No breakage here, never. Wow. | I have something similar to the .local stuff Ted does. In fact, I used to |use exactly that pattern. However, I've taken to doing that via symlinks |to the host name (so foo.host with multiple ones symlinked to the |master if it comes to that). That way I could keep my local changes |in version control... One to many client machines crashing and losing |stuff in my past... Yeah. No. :) (But for one lost backup encryption key that almost broke me and anyway ate some really good work i was/am prowd of.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk Fri Dec 24 05:09:18 2021 From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2021 19:09:18 +0000 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Photos of University Computer Labs - now off topic In-Reply-To: References: <818A6F70-D117-471A-9E08-E37B34F8FAE0@mac.com> <20211223021805.GK24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223141958.GR24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223160011.GS24180@mcvoy.com> <3915e4db-6740-9777-03f4-4c6b4c09045c@csp-partnership.co.uk> <20211223163532.GW24180@mcvoy.com> <0531de6e-6c93-bdde-9ee4-cd4ab1f54e0b@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: <1dae1721-dede-66e7-4227-a2ac9ba0bda9@csp-partnership.co.uk> On 12/23/21 6:02 PM, John Cowan wrote: > C _arithmetic_ meant 'number theory', and so the part concerned with > the computation of "ambition, distraction, uglification, and derision" > (Lewis Carroll) was _elementary arithmetic_.  (Before that it was > _algorism_.)  When _higher arithmetic_ got its own name, the > _elementary_ part was dropped in accordance with Grice's Maxim of > Quantity ("be as informative as you can, giving as much information as > necessary, but no more").  This did not happen to _algebra_, which > still can mean either elementary or abstract algebra, still less to > _geometry_. > > In addition, from the teacher's viewpoint school mathematics is a > continuum, including the elementary parts of arithmetic, algebra, > geometry, trigonometry, and in recent times probability theory and Hey that was 50 years ago! topics like Matrices, subjects like Algebra, Geometry, so things like Integration+ Differentiation, integration by parts, simple statistics etc. Arithmetic was of the form "A customer buys 2 pairs of gloves at 1 and 6pence halfpenny per pair and a hat for a crown.  She pays with a guinea; what is the smallest number of coins in change you can give her."  (a guinea was 21shillings, 12 pence in a shilling, a crown was 5 shillings etc etc).  I think I would be better called mental arithmetic.  We had ounces and pounds, and stones and hundredweight.  Inches, hands, feet, yards, chains, furlongs, miles etc.  So perhaps arithmetic was a more required learning? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tytso at mit.edu Thu Dec 30 02:58:27 2021 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o) Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2021 11:58:27 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Photos of University Computer Labs - now off topic In-Reply-To: References: <20211223021805.GK24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223141958.GR24180@mcvoy.com> <20211223161923.GT24180@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: (Moving to COFF, tuhs on bcc.) On Tue, Dec 28, 2021 at 01:45:14PM -0800, Greg A. Woods wrote: > > There have been patches proposed, but it turns out the sticky wicket > > is that we're out of signal numbers on most architectures. > > Huh. What an interesting "excuse"! (Not that I know anything useful > about the implementation in Linux....) If recall correctly, the last time someone tried to submit patches, they overloaded some signal that was in use, and it was NACK'ed on that basis. I personally didn't care, because on my systems, I'll use GUI program like xload, or if I need something more detailed, GKrellM. (And GKreelM can be used to remotely monitor servers as well.) > > SIGLOST - Term File lock lost (unused) > > SIGSTKFLT - Term Stack fault on coprocessor (unused) > > If SIGLOST were used/needed it would seem like a very bad system design. It's used in Solaris to report that the client NFSv4 code could not recover a file lock on recovery. So that means one of the first places to look would be to see if Ganesha (an open-source NFSv4 user-space client) isn't using SIGLOST (or might have plans to use SIGLOST in the feature). For a remote / distributed file system, Brewer's Theorem applies --- Consistency, Availability, Partition tolerance --- chose any two, but you're not always going to be able to get all three. Cheers, - Ted From athornton at gmail.com Fri Dec 31 12:23:36 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2021 19:23:36 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] moving directories in svr2 In-Reply-To: References: <20211230034512.B9B3718C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <99D8FDF5-7B60-43CA-AAAD-974056644668@iitbombay.org> Message-ID: Moving to COFF, perhaps prematurely, but... It feels weird to be a Unix native (which I consider myself: got my first taste of Irix and SVR3 in 1989, went to college where it was a Sun-mostly environment, started running Linux on my own machines in 1992 and never stopped). (For purposes of this discussion, of course Linux is Unix.) It feels weird the same way it was weird when I was working for Express Scripts, and then ESRX bought Medco, and all of a sudden we were the 500-lb Gorilla. That's why I left: we (particularly my little group) had been doing some fairly cool and innovative stuff, and after that deal closed, we switched over entirely to playing defense, and it got really boring really fast. My biggest win after that was showing that Pega ran perfectly fine on Tomcat, which caused IBM to say something like "oh did we say $5 million a year to license Websphere App Server? Uh...we meant $50K." So I saved them a lot of money but it sucked to watch several months' work flushed down the toilet, even though the savings to the company was many times my salary for those months. But the weird part is similar: Unix won. Windows *lost*. Sure, corporate desktops still mostly run Windows, and those people who use it mostly hate it. But people who like using computers...use Macs (or, sure, Linux, and then there are those weirdos like me who enjoy running all sorts of ancient-or-niche-systems, many of which are Unix). And all the people who don't care do computing tasks on their phones, which are running either Android--a Unix--or iOS--also a Unix. It's ubiquitous. It's the air you breathe. It's no longer strange to be a Unix user, it means you use a 21st-century electronic device. And, sure, it's got its warts, but it's still basically the least-worst thing out there. And it continues to flabbergast me that a typesetting system designed to run on single-processor 16-bit machines has, basically, conquered the world. Adam P.S. It's also about time, he said with a sigh of relief, having been an OS/2 partisan, and a BeOS partisan, back in the day. Nice to back a winning horse for once. On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 6:46 PM Bakul Shah wrote: > ? > > I was just explaining Ts'o's point, not agreeing with it. The first > example I > gave works just fine on plan9 (unlike on unix). And since it doesn't allow > renames, the scenario T'so outlines can't happen there! But we were > discussing Unix here. > > As for symlinks, if we have to have them, storing a path actually makes > their > use less surprising. > > We're in the 6th decade of Unix and we still suffer from unintended, > fixable consequences of decisions made long long ago. > > > No argument here. Perhaps you can suggest a path for fixing? > > On Dec 30, 2021, at 5:00 PM, Rob Pike wrote: > > Grumpy hat on. > > Sometimes the Unix community suffers from the twin attitudes of a) > believing if it can't be done perfectly, any improvement shouldn't be > attempted at all and b) it's already done as well as is possible anyway. > > I disagree with both of these positions, obviously, but have given up > pushing against them. > > We're in the 6th decade of Unix and we still suffer from unintended, > fixable consequences of decisions made long long ago. > > Grumpy hat off. > > -rob > > > On Fri, Dec 31, 2021 at 11:44 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > >> On Dec 30, 2021, at 2:31 PM, Dan Cross wrote: >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 30, 2021 at 11:41 AM Theodore Ts'o wrote: >> >> >> >> The other problem with storing the path as a string is that if >> >> higher-level directories get renamed, the path would become >> >> invalidated. If you store the cwd as "/foo/bar/baz/quux", and someone >> >> renames "/foo/bar" to "/foo/sadness" the cwd-stored-as-a-string would >> >> become invalidated. >> > >> > Why? Presumably as you traversed the filesystem, you'd cache, (path >> > component, inode) pairs and keep a ref on the inode. For any given >> > file, including $CWD, you'd know it's pathname from the root as you >> > accessed it, but if it got renamed, it wouldn't matter because you'd >> > have cached a reference to the inode. >> >> Without the ".." entry you can't map a dir inode back to a path. >> Note that something similar can happen even today: >> >> $ mkdir ~/a; cd ~/a; rm -rf ~/a; cd .. >> cd: no such file or directory: .. >> >> $ mkdir -p ~/a/b; ln -s ~/a/b b; cd b; mv ~/a/b ~/a/c; cd ../b >> ls: ../b: No such file or directory >> >> You can't protect the user from every such case. Storing a path >> instead of the cwd inode simply changes the symptoms. >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: