From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 16 02:11:49 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 09:11:49 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? Message-ID: Hi, Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? I've run across them again recently while reading old Unix texts. I've been aware of them for years, but I've never actually used them for anything beyond kicking the tires. So I figured that I'd inquire of the hive mind that is TUHS / COFF. When was the concept of group passwords introduced? What was the problem that group passwords were the solution for? How common was the use of group passwords? I ran into one comment indicating that they used newgrp to work around a limitation in the number of (secondary) groups in relation to an NFS implementation. Specifically that the implementation of NFS they were using didn't support more than 16 groups. So they would switch their primary group to work around this limit. Does anyone have any interesting stories related to group passwords / gpasswd / newgrp / sg? -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4013 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From arrigo at alchemistowl.org Tue Nov 16 02:26:03 2021 From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 17:26:03 +0100 Subject: [COFF] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6882B4A4-EE01-4189-B7E0-2E9BF5383272@alchemistowl.org> On 15 Nov 2021, at 17:11, Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > I've run across them again recently while reading old Unix texts. I've been aware of them for years, but I've never actually used them for anything beyond kicking the tires. So I figured that I'd inquire of the hive mind that is TUHS / COFF. The only time I ever used it was back in the early ‘90s when on a SunOS system (dirac, for friends) it was used to allow graduate students access to the grading database (i.e. a text file) which was within a directory normally only accessible to teaching staff. The directory was group writable to a special “marking group” to which the various graduate students were added each term. We’d "newgrp grades” and type the password we had been given to be able to edit the file and add the grades for the assessments we had marked (for food money). I eventually became root on the machine and found my “su -“ screen to be a faster solution to accessing the file (sorry Franco, should you ever read this). Cheers, Arrigo From clemc at ccc.com Tue Nov 16 04:29:29 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:29:29 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grant, Mashey and crew basically did most of the original group work as part of PWB. If you look at the Sixth Edition sources and the PWB 1.0 stuff, that is one of the places you will find differences. With Seventh Edition (or I believe as part of the UNIX/TS work that Ken picked up), the Mashey group changes went back into the Research stream. With one of the predecessors to 4.2BSD (it may have 4.1A or 4.1B but frankly I have forgotten) Joy introduced the group scheme we all use today. The Mashey scheme allowed an UID to be assigned to multiple groups, but only use (be in) a single group during the process lifetime. IIRC the RJE system was based on it, but there were some other scripts that the PWB team needed. Check the original PWB docs, there is some explanation of them. FWIW: new group was added to be similar to switch user (su), to change the gid when the setguid bit was not set on the file. The truth is the early group stuff was not used by most admins. With BSD and use of UNIX for large systems (particularly academic teaching systems), the desire to have some processes be in more than one group and be able to test the group file protections accordingly was desired -- for things like creating a group for each class - where the hand in system was write-only to the class's TA who was also part of the group. I'm sure it was used in many other ways, but that was certainly one scheme we used at UCB when wnj added them. Again check the 4.2 docs, where the BSD group scheme is explained. This did seem useful and System V picked it up also fairly soon after BSD released it to the world, and fortunately did not change the BSD semantics. ᐧ On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:12 AM Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > Hi, > > Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? > > I've run across them again recently while reading old Unix texts. I've > been aware of them for years, but I've never actually used them for > anything beyond kicking the tires. So I figured that I'd inquire of the > hive mind that is TUHS / COFF. > > When was the concept of group passwords introduced? > > What was the problem that group passwords were the solution for? > > How common was the use of group passwords? > > I ran into one comment indicating that they used newgrp to work around a > limitation in the number of (secondary) groups in relation to an NFS > implementation. Specifically that the implementation of NFS they were > using didn't support more than 16 groups. So they would switch their > primary group to work around this limit. > > Does anyone have any interesting stories related to group passwords / > gpasswd / newgrp / sg? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Nov 16 04:51:30 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:51:30 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 3BSD has the V7 scheme, the new kernel code where there is a group list in the process is not introduced until later/ ᐧ On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:46 PM Henry Bent wrote: > On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 at 13:31, Clem Cole wrote: > >> Grant, >> >> Mashey and crew basically did most of the original group work as part of >> PWB. If you look at the Sixth Edition sources and the PWB 1.0 stuff, that >> is one of the places you will find differences. With Seventh Edition (or I >> believe as part of the UNIX/TS work that Ken picked up), the Mashey group >> changes went back into the Research stream. With one of the predecessors to >> 4.2BSD (it may have 4.1A or 4.1B but frankly I have forgotten) Joy >> introduced the group scheme we all use today. >> >> > Looking at the TUHS archives, unless I'm missing something, 3BSD has > groups that appear to be in the modern format: > > % ls -l /bsd/3bsd/etc/group > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 44 1980-01-02 22:08 /bsd/3bsd/etc/group > % cat /bsd/3bsd/etc/group > staff:*:10:bill,ozalp > grad:*:20: > prof:*:30: > % find . -name 'chgrp*' | xargs ls -l > -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 6960 Dec 30 1979 ./usr/bin/chgrp > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 26 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/man/man1/chgrp.1 > -r--r--r-- 1 root root 754 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/src/cmd/chgrp.c > > -Henry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Nov 16 04:54:40 2021 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 11:54:40 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. V7 had chgrp too. It dealt only with adjusting the group "ownership" of a file. Warner On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:52 AM Clem Cole wrote: > 3BSD has the V7 scheme, the new kernel code where there is a group list in > the process is not introduced until later/ > ᐧ > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:46 PM Henry Bent wrote: > >> On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 at 13:31, Clem Cole wrote: >> >>> Grant, >>> >>> Mashey and crew basically did most of the original group work as part of >>> PWB. If you look at the Sixth Edition sources and the PWB 1.0 stuff, that >>> is one of the places you will find differences. With Seventh Edition (or I >>> believe as part of the UNIX/TS work that Ken picked up), the Mashey group >>> changes went back into the Research stream. With one of the predecessors to >>> 4.2BSD (it may have 4.1A or 4.1B but frankly I have forgotten) Joy >>> introduced the group scheme we all use today. >>> >>> >> Looking at the TUHS archives, unless I'm missing something, 3BSD has >> groups that appear to be in the modern format: >> >> % ls -l /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 44 1980-01-02 22:08 /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> % cat /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> staff:*:10:bill,ozalp >> grad:*:20: >> prof:*:30: >> % find . -name 'chgrp*' | xargs ls -l >> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 6960 Dec 30 1979 ./usr/bin/chgrp >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 26 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/man/man1/chgrp.1 >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 754 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/src/cmd/chgrp.c >> >> -Henry >> > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Nov 16 04:56:01 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:56:01 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Henry check out: http://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIX*_System_V_and_4.1C_BSD Page 25 describes the new BSD group and identifier scheme. ᐧ On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:51 PM Clem Cole wrote: > 3BSD has the V7 scheme, the new kernel code where there is a group list in > the process is not introduced until later/ > ᐧ > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 1:46 PM Henry Bent wrote: > >> On Mon, 15 Nov 2021 at 13:31, Clem Cole wrote: >> >>> Grant, >>> >>> Mashey and crew basically did most of the original group work as part of >>> PWB. If you look at the Sixth Edition sources and the PWB 1.0 stuff, that >>> is one of the places you will find differences. With Seventh Edition (or I >>> believe as part of the UNIX/TS work that Ken picked up), the Mashey group >>> changes went back into the Research stream. With one of the predecessors to >>> 4.2BSD (it may have 4.1A or 4.1B but frankly I have forgotten) Joy >>> introduced the group scheme we all use today. >>> >>> >> Looking at the TUHS archives, unless I'm missing something, 3BSD has >> groups that appear to be in the modern format: >> >> % ls -l /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 44 1980-01-02 22:08 /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> % cat /bsd/3bsd/etc/group >> staff:*:10:bill,ozalp >> grad:*:20: >> prof:*:30: >> % find . -name 'chgrp*' | xargs ls -l >> -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 6960 Dec 30 1979 ./usr/bin/chgrp >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 26 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/man/man1/chgrp.1 >> -r--r--r-- 1 root root 754 Feb 12 1979 ./usr/src/cmd/chgrp.c >> >> -Henry >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 16 05:27:26 2021 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Double posting Message-ID: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Can people **please** send posts to one of these two lists, only? Having to go through and delete every other post (yeah, I know, I could relete _all_ messages to either list, since they are archived, but old habits are hard to break) is _really_ annoying. OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as wide a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy people just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their reply. Thank you. Noel From will.senn at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 05:57:59 2021 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:57:59 -0600 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Double posting In-Reply-To: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5402826f-3097-821a-74d0-5ff862ad8056@gmail.com> On 11/15/21 1:27 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Can people **please** send posts to one of these two lists, only? Having to go > through and delete every other post (yeah, I know, I could relete _all_ > messages to either list, since they are archived, but old habits are hard to > break) is _really_ annoying. > > OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as wide > a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy people > just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their > reply. > > Thank you. > > Noel > amen. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksspiers at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 06:02:43 2021 From: ksspiers at gmail.com (Kathryn Spiers) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:02:43 -0800 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: you didn't bcc one of them... (TUHS to bcc) On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:55 AM Noel Chiappa wrote: > Can people **please** send posts to one of these two lists, only? Having > to go > through and delete every other post (yeah, I know, I could relete _all_ > messages to either list, since they are archived, but old habits are hard > to > break) is _really_ annoying. > > OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as > wide > a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy > people > just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their > reply. > > Thank you. > > Noel > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ksspiers at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 06:07:11 2021 From: ksspiers at gmail.com (Kathryn Spiers) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 12:07:11 -0800 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: it looks like bccing the mailing list gets the message held for approval On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 12:02 Kathryn Spiers wrote: > you didn't bcc one of them... > > (TUHS to bcc) > > On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:55 AM Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> Can people **please** send posts to one of these two lists, only? Having >> to go >> through and delete every other post (yeah, I know, I could relete _all_ >> messages to either list, since they are archived, but old habits are hard >> to >> break) is _really_ annoying. >> >> OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as >> wide >> a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy >> people >> just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their >> reply. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Noel >> >> _______________________________________________ >> COFF mailing list >> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Tue Nov 16 06:28:56 2021 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 15:28:56 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:07 PM Kathryn Spiers wrote: > it looks like bccing the mailing list gets the message held for approval > I really do wish we could get the lists configured to permit Bcc's. It is a very effective way to redirect traffic from one list to another in lieu of a `Reply-to:`. - Dan C. On Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 12:02 Kathryn Spiers wrote: > >> you didn't bcc one of them... >> >> (TUHS to bcc) >> >> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 11:55 AM Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> Can people **please** send posts to one of these two lists, only? Having >>> to go >>> through and delete every other post (yeah, I know, I could relete _all_ >>> messages to either list, since they are archived, but old habits are >>> hard to >>> break) is _really_ annoying. >>> >>> OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as >>> wide >>> a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy >>> people >>> just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their >>> reply. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Noel >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> COFF mailing list >>> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org >>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff >>> >> _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wkt at tuhs.org Tue Nov 16 06:57:11 2021 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 06:57:11 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20211115205711.GA16126@minnie.tuhs.org> On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 02:27:26PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > OK, I can see sending an _initial_ query to both lists, to get it to as wide > a circle as possible: _but_ BCC at least one of them, to prevent lazy people > just hitting 'reply all' and thereby sanding out multiple copies of their > reply. I've just disabled "require explicit destination" on both the TUHS and COFF lists. Let's see if that allows bcc between them. Cheers, Warren From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 16 06:59:48 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:59:48 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11/15/21 1:28 PM, Dan Cross wrote: > I really do wish we could get the lists configured to permit Bcc's. It > is a very effective way to redirect traffic from one list to another in > lieu of a `Reply-to:`. I believe that this is possible. I think you can configure Mailman to allow the list to be BCCed and check that the sender is a member. Warren, what do you think? -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 16 07:03:14 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 14:03:14 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Double posting In-Reply-To: References: <20211115192726.6AD6818C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <82e83acf-a487-24ff-6737-cfd00a156c9b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/15/21 1:59 PM, Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > I believe that this is possible.  I think you can configure Mailman to > allow the list to be BCCed and check that the sender is a member. > > Warren, what do you think? Sorry for the extra message. I saw Warren's reply about (previously) requiring an explicit destination, /after/ I hit send. I think it came in while I was typing my reply. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From clemc at ccc.com Tue Nov 16 07:37:55 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 16:37:55 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: <202111152017.1AFKH9Om032644@freefriends.org> References: <202111152017.1AFKH9Om032644@freefriends.org> Message-ID: Fair enough. ᐧ On Mon, Nov 15, 2021 at 3:17 PM wrote: > Clem Cole wrote: > > > I'm sure it was used in many other ways, but that was certainly one > scheme > > we used at UCB when wnj added them. Again check the 4.2 docs, where the > > BSD group scheme is explained. This did seem useful and System V picked > > it up also fairly soon after BSD released it to the world, and > fortunately > > did not change the BSD semantics. > > Not so soon, really. The new group scheme was widely released with > 4.2 BSD (~ 1983). System V didn't pick up multiple groups until > System V Release 4, circa 1989. > > Arnold > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnold at skeeve.com Tue Nov 16 06:17:09 2021 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 13:17:09 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Will someone please explain the history and usage of gpasswd / newgrp / sg? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202111152017.1AFKH9Om032644@freefriends.org> Clem Cole wrote: > I'm sure it was used in many other ways, but that was certainly one scheme > we used at UCB when wnj added them. Again check the 4.2 docs, where the > BSD group scheme is explained. This did seem useful and System V picked > it up also fairly soon after BSD released it to the world, and fortunately > did not change the BSD semantics. Not so soon, really. The new group scheme was widely released with 4.2 BSD (~ 1983). System V didn't pick up multiple groups until System V Release 4, circa 1989. Arnold From athornton at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 01:53:51 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 08:53:51 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From TUHS (to Doug McIlroy): "Curious what you think of APL" I'm sure what Doug thinks of APL is unprintable. Unless, of course, he has the special type ball. On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 8:23 AM Richard Salz wrote: > > The former notation C(B(A)) became A->B->C. This was PL/I's gift to C. >> > > You seem to have a gift for notation. That's rare. Curious what you think > of APL? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From clemc at ccc.com Wed Nov 17 02:19:38 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 11:19:38 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <20211116040858.se3ygq2butxqopcx@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Moving to COFF ... On Tue, Nov 16, 2021 at 10:50 AM Adam Thornton wrote: > I'm not even sure how much of this you can lay at the feet of teachers: I > would argue that we see a huge efflorescence of essentially self-taught > programming cobbled together from (in the old days) the system manuals a > Ouch ... this is exactly my point. In my experience in ~55 years of programming, with greater than 45 of those being paid to do it, the best programmers I know and have worked with were taught/mentored by a master -- not self-taught. As I said, I had to be re-educated once I got the CMU. My Dad had done the best he knew, but much of what he taught me was shortcuts and tricks because that is what he knew 🠪 he taught me syntax, not how to think. I know a lot of programmers (like myself) that were self-taught or introduced to computing by novices to start and that experience get them excited, but all of them had real teachers/mentors who taught them the true art form and helped them unlearn a lot of crap that they had picked up or miss-interpreted. Looking at my father as a teacher, he really had never been taught to think like a programmer. In the late 1950s he was a 'computer' [see the movie "Hidden Figures"]. He was taught FORTRAN and BASIC and told to implement things he had been doing by hand (solving differential equations using linear algebra). The ideas we know and loved about structured programming and* how to do this well* were still being invented by folks like Doug and his sisters and brothers in the research community. It's no surprise that my Dad taught me to 'hack' because he and I had nothing to compare to. BTW: this is not to state all HS computer teachers are bad, but the problem is that most people that are really good at programming are actually quite rare and they tend to end up in research or industry -- not teaching HS. Today, the typical HS computer teacher (like one of my nieces) takes a course or two at UMASS in the teacher's college. They are never taught to program or take the same courses the kids in science and engineering take 🠪 BTW I also think this is why we see so much of the popular press talking about 'coding' not programming. They really think learning to program is learning the syntax of a specific programming language. When I look at the young people I hire (and mentor) told, it's not any different. BTW: Jon and I had a little bit of a disagreement when he wrote his book. He uses Javascript for a lot of his examples - because of exactly what you point out 🠪 Javascript today, like BASIC before it, has a very high "on-screen results" factor with little work by the user. Much is being done behind the covers to make that magic happen. I tend to believe that creates a false sense of knowledge/understanding. To Jon's credit, he tries to bridge that in his book. As I said, I thought I knew a lot more about computers until I got to CMU. Boy was I in for an education. That said, I was lucky to be around some very smart people who helped steer me. Clem ᐧ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Nov 17 04:54:52 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:54:52 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Joys of PL/I [Was: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2021-11-16 09:57, Douglas McIlroy wrote: > The following remark stirred old memories. Apologies for straying off > the path of TUHS. > >> I have gotten the impression that [PL/I] was a language that was beloved by no one. > As I was a designer of PL/I, an implementer of EPL (the preliminary > PL/I compiler used to build Multics), and author of the first PL/I > program to appear in the ACM Collected Algorithms, it's a bit hard to > admit that PL/I was "insignificant". I'm proud, though, of having > conceived the SIGNAL statement, which pioneered exception handling, > and the USES and SETS attributes, which unfortunately sank into > oblivion. I also spurred Bud Lawson to invent -> for pointer-chasing. > The former notation C(B(A)) became A->B->C. This was PL/I's gift to C. > > After the ACM program I never wrote another line of PL/I. > Gratification finally came forty years on when I met a retired > programmer who, unaware of my PL/I connection, volunteered that she > had loved PL/I above all other programming languages. My first language was actually PL/C  (and the computer centre did not charge for runs in PL/C).  I needed to use PL/I for some thesis-related work and ran into the JLC wall -- no issues with the former, many issues with the latter.  One of the support people, upon learning that I was using PL/I, said: "PL/I's alright!" N. > > Doug From sauer at technologists.com Wed Nov 17 05:40:12 2021 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 13:40:12 -0600 Subject: [COFF] Joys of PL/I [Was: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/16/2021 12:54 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > On 2021-11-16 09:57, Douglas McIlroy wrote: >> The following remark stirred old memories. Apologies for straying off >> the path of TUHS. >>> I have gotten the impression that [PL/I] was a language that was >>> beloved by no one. >> As I was a designer of PL/I, an implementer of EPL (the preliminary >> PL/I compiler used to build Multics), and author of the first PL/I >> program to appear in the ACM Collected Algorithms, it's a bit hard to >> admit that PL/I was "insignificant". I'm proud, though, of having >> conceived the SIGNAL statement, which pioneered exception handling, >> and the USES and SETS attributes, which unfortunately sank into >> oblivion. I also spurred Bud Lawson to invent -> for pointer-chasing. >> The former notation C(B(A)) became A->B->C. This was PL/I's gift to C. >> After the ACM program I never wrote another line of PL/I. >> Gratification finally came forty years on when I met a retired >> programmer who, unaware of my PL/I connection, volunteered that she >> had loved PL/I above all other programming languages. > My first language was actually PL/C  (and the computer centre did not > charge for runs in PL/C).  I needed to use PL/I for some thesis-related > work and ran into the JLC wall -- no issues with the former, many issues > with the latter.  One of the support people, upon learning that I was > using PL/I, said: "PL/I's alright!" Inside IBM in the 70s, PL/I was definitely not "insignificant". From my perspective it was the most reasonable language available on VM/370. I arrived at Yorktown in 1975 fresh from Austin with a couple of boxes of punch cards of my "APLOMB" simulation program written in Fortran. I was surprised when I was encouraged to pursue major enhancement of APLOMB and dismayed by continuing in Fortran. After a period of increasing frustration, I wrote a SNOBOL program to convert APLOMB to PL/I and become the basis for RESQ (https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2020/08/25/remembering-resq/). As long as I avoided questionable parts of IBM's PL/I, I was happy with PL/I. It is hard to imagine that RESQ would have succeeded in any other language. -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer From bakul at iitbombay.org Wed Nov 17 06:20:31 2021 From: bakul at iitbombay.org (Bakul Shah) Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 12:20:31 -0800 Subject: [COFF] Joys of PL/I [Was: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8AF13C12-639D-42E8-9C06-14A5138225CA@iitbombay.org> On Nov 16, 2021, at 10:55 AM, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > > On 2021-11-16 09:57, Douglas McIlroy wrote: >> The following remark stirred old memories. Apologies for straying off >> the path of TUHS. >> >>> I have gotten the impression that [PL/I] was a language that was beloved by no one. >> As I was a designer of PL/I, an implementer of EPL (the preliminary >> PL/I compiler used to build Multics), and author of the first PL/I >> program to appear in the ACM Collected Algorithms, it's a bit hard to >> admit that PL/I was "insignificant". I'm proud, though, of having >> conceived the SIGNAL statement, which pioneered exception handling, >> and the USES and SETS attributes, which unfortunately sank into >> oblivion. I also spurred Bud Lawson to invent -> for pointer-chasing. >> The former notation C(B(A)) became A->B->C. This was PL/I's gift to C. >> >> After the ACM program I never wrote another line of PL/I. >> Gratification finally came forty years on when I met a retired >> programmer who, unaware of my PL/I connection, volunteered that she >> had loved PL/I above all other programming languages. > > My first language was actually PL/C (and the computer centre did not charge for runs in PL/C). I needed to use PL/I for some thesis-related work and ran into the JLC wall -- no issues with the former, many issues with the latter. One of the support people, upon learning that I was using PL/I, said: "PL/I's alright!" For my very first programming assignment @ USC I spent extra 17 hours due to an extra space in the JCL statement! It wasn’t a total waste as I rewrote my program twice, learned to prove to myself that it was correct and once I removed the space and the program worked, I had a lightbulb moment: Computers were not inscrutable or mysterious; they were just dumb and literal :-) I learned IBM assembly language, Fortran and PL/C during those two semesters. I even wrote an autorouter in Fortran for a project but that my last Fortran project. Later for a part time job I tried to learn and use pretty much every feature of PL/I. I found it easier to use than Fortran and fun. Then when I stumbled upon Iverson’s book on APL and discovered I could use it from an interactive terminal, I managed to convince the scientist I was working for to let me use it. That was even more fun but it didn’t last as I made a careless mistake & the program ran too long and used up most of my boss’es computing budget so it was back to PL/I! > > N. > >> >> Doug > > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff From athornton at gmail.com Thu Nov 18 08:31:06 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:31:06 -0700 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] In-Reply-To: References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:24 PM Rob Pike wrote: > Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was the > lingua franca of system administration. > It's still what I reach for first when I need to write a state machine that processes a file made up of lines with some--or some set of--structures. The integration of regexps is far, far, far superior to what Python can do, and I adore the while(<>) construct. Maintaining other people's Perl usually sucks, but it's a very easy way to solve your own little problems. Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bakul at iitbombay.org Thu Nov 18 08:46:14 2021 From: bakul at iitbombay.org (Bakul Shah) Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 14:46:14 -0800 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation [ reallly inscrutable languages ] In-Reply-To: References: <202111161754.1AGHsGsN929905@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <50F3E958-F0A4-4895-B1BC-41A2644A074A@oclsc.org> Message-ID: <8BD5ECC0-A489-4B19-8117-3FD7F4F657E7@iitbombay.org> On Nov 17, 2021, at 2:31 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 17, 2021 at 3:24 PM Rob Pike wrote: > Perl certainly had its detractors, but for a few years there it was the lingua franca of system administration. > > It's still what I reach for first when I need to write a state machine that processes a file made up of lines with some--or some set of--structures. The integration of regexps is far, far, far superior to what Python can do, and I adore the while(<>) construct. Maintaining other people's Perl usually sucks, but it's a very easy way to solve your own little problems. [Random tangent] you can tell when a programmer first started seriously programming by the tools or languages they reach for first! Perl used to be very popular in hardware verification. May still be. And that has to do with when *verification* became a serious activity. Just as machine learning mostly uses python as it sort of came of age when Python was all the rage. Just Go became populat with cloud computing with Kubernetes and all! So you can also tell when an computing subgenre became popular by their language of choice! From grog at lemis.com Fri Nov 19 09:03:10 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 10:03:10 +1100 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? Message-ID: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> I recently had a discussion with some colleagues on the topic of shells. Two people whom I respect both told me that Microsoft's Powershell runs rings round the Bourne shell. Somehow that sounds like anathema to me, but it's not beyond the bounds of possibility. Before I waste time investigating, can anybody here give me some insights? Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Fri Nov 19 11:12:12 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:12:12 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <39215532-47b8-92ba-ce82-d1307ce5be03@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/18/21 4:03 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I recently had a discussion with some colleagues on the topic of > shells. Two people whom I respect both told me that Microsoft's > Powershell runs rings round the Bourne shell. I've heard praise of PowerShell from people who are skilled in the typical Unix shell. But I've never heard anything on the order of running rings around Bourne shell. > Somehow that sounds like anathema to me, but it's not beyond the bounds > of possibility. Before I waste time investigating, can anybody here > give me some insights? I would say that PowerShell was designed two or more decades /after/ Bourne shell and that a lot was learned in computer since in the intervening time. I've been told that PowerShell and / or the commands run therefrom actually pass structural data that is easy to query /if/ you know how to do so. It's this structure vs free form textual output that is common in Unix shells that make the biggest difference. Think XML markup vs an unstructured text file. (Though you don't actually see the structure scaffolding.) At least that's my understanding from people competent in traditional Unix shells and PowerShell. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4017 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From athornton at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 15:15:32 2021 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 22:15:32 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: It’s not an insane claim. PS is way wordier but it does deal with structured objects rather than just byte streams. I think of PS as being a closer match to VM/CMS Pipelines (but much less elegant). There are arguments to be made both ways. I generally prefer the byte stream where the producer and consumer have to agree on the format, but, well, Unix is my homeland. I guess I argue that PS minus IPC is COBOL to Bourne Shell’s C. Some people prefer it and de gustibus non est disputandum. On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 4:12 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > I recently had a discussion with some colleagues on the topic of > shells. Two people whom I respect both told me that Microsoft's > Powershell runs rings round the Bourne shell. > > Somehow that sounds like anathema to me, but it's not beyond the > bounds of possibility. Before I waste time investigating, can anybody > here give me some insights? > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andreww591 at gmail.com Fri Nov 19 16:19:25 2021 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 23:19:25 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: (mistakenly sent this as a private message and not to the list) On 11/18/21, Adam Thornton wrote: > It’s not an insane claim. > > PS is way wordier but it does deal with structured objects rather than just > byte streams. > > I think of PS as being a closer match to VM/CMS Pipelines (but much less > elegant). > > There are arguments to be made both ways. I generally prefer the byte > stream where the producer and consumer have to agree on the format, but, > well, Unix is my homeland. > > I guess I argue that PS minus IPC is COBOL to Bourne Shell’s C. Some > people prefer it and de gustibus non est disputandum. > The biggest issue I have with PowerShell besides its verbosity is that commands have to be implemented as plugins rather than as external programs. I'm thinking at some point I may write a Bourne-like shell with object-oriented features for the OS that I'm working on. Instead of requiring commands to be plugins to use the object-oriented features I am thinking of having a generic facility for serialization and deserialization with hooks to deal with the output format of different commands (with JSON being an option as well). From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sat Nov 20 04:44:42 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 19:44:42 +0100 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20211119184442.igZY9%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Andrew Warkentin wrote in : |On 11/18/21, Adam Thornton wrote: ... |The biggest issue I have with PowerShell besides its verbosity is that |commands have to be implemented as plugins rather than as external |programs. | |I'm thinking at some point I may write a Bourne-like shell with |object-oriented features for the OS that I'm working on. Instead of |requiring commands to be plugins to use the object-oriented features I |am thinking of having a generic facility for serialization and |deserialization with hooks to deal with the output format of different |commands (with JSON being an option as well). I think by the end of the 80s / beginning of 90s David Korn's shell did offer things like (object|module|x).subcall, aka method calls in C++ sense or in ruby sense also module functions iirc. I think there were even modules for graphical user interfaces that could be driven by Korn shell, but all that i only saw from glancing over history, i did not live it. Ruby was slow compared to Perl 19 years ago. I wrote "Monty" things for TCL, Python, Ruby, Perl, and object based "Monty" for the same except TCL. AMD Athlon 1600+, 133FSB, 256MB (27MB used;), linux console, 10000 loops: monty.php:# ~0.250 secs. monty.pl:# ~0.100 secs. monty.py:# ~0.590 secs. monty.rb:# ~0.178 secs. monty.tcl:# ~0.360 secs. monty_obj.php:# ~0.310 secs. monty_obj.pl:# ~0.175 secs. monty_obj.py:# ~0.600 secs. monty_obj.rb:# ~0.218 secs. Back in around 2011 someone counted script language startup CPU cycles, and iirc Python was several times that of Perl. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From tytso at mit.edu Sat Nov 20 09:00:16 2021 From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:00:16 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: <39215532-47b8-92ba-ce82-d1307ce5be03@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> <39215532-47b8-92ba-ce82-d1307ce5be03@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 06:12:12PM -0700, Grant Taylor via COFF wrote: > I've been told that PowerShell and / or the commands run therefrom actually > pass structural data that is easy to query /if/ you know how to do so. It's > this structure vs free form textual output that is common in Unix shells > that make the biggest difference. Think XML markup vs an unstructured text > file. (Though you don't actually see the structure scaffolding.) So I take it you can do something a bit more civilized than this in Powershell? run_gcloud compute instances describe --zone "$z" "$i" --format=json > "$inst_info" kver=$(jq < "$inst_info" 2> /dev/null '.metadata.items[] | select(.key == "kernel_version") | .value' | \ sed -e 's/^"//' -e 's/"$//' -e 's/^Linux xfstests-[0-9A-Za-z-]* //' \ -e 's/ .*//') gce_status=$(jq < "$inst_info" .status | sed -e 's/^"//' -e 's/"$//') status=$(jq < "$inst_info" 2> /dev/null \ '.metadata.items[] | select(.key == "status") | .value' | \ sed -e 's/^"//' -e 's/"$//') ip=$(jq < "$inst_info" 2> /dev/null \ '.networkInterfaces[] | .accessConfigs[] | select(.name == "external-nat") | .natIP' | \ sed -e 's/^"//' -e 's/"$//') echo "$i $ip - $kver - $status - $gce_status" I probably should rewrite the 3500-4000 or so lines of bash script which is gce-xfstests in Python or Go, but the script has been growing over the years, and in many ways shell scripting is one of the faster languages for prototyping new functionality, at least for me, than Python. Plus which, bash doesn't do forced march upgrades like Python does.... - Ted From michael at kjorling.se Sun Nov 21 01:54:14 2021 From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 15:54:14 +0000 Subject: [COFF] Powershell better than Bourne shell? In-Reply-To: References: <20211118230310.GB94373@eureka.lemis.com> <39215532-47b8-92ba-ce82-d1307ce5be03@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8921ba35-4e92-4d21-ae1b-f47f31bb6945@localhost> On 19 Nov 2021 18:00 -0500, from tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o): > status=$(jq < "$inst_info" 2> /dev/null \ > '.metadata.items[] | select(.key == "status") | .value' | \ > sed -e 's/^"//' -e 's/"$//') That's likely a UUOS; Useless Use Of Sed. Try with `jq -r` instead. (Spotted it because I found myself doing the exact same thing not long ago. I guess that means I'm in good company.) -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” From clemc at ccc.com Wed Nov 24 01:23:47 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 10:23:47 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Moving to COFF where this probably belongs because its less UNIX and more PL oriented. On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:00 AM Henry Bent wrote: > What language were the PL/I compilers written in? > I don't know about anyone else, but the VAX PL/1 front-end was bought by DEC from Freiburghouse (??SP??) in Framingham, MA. It was written in PL/1 on a Multics system. The Front-end was the same one that Pr1me used although Pr1me also bought their Fortran, which DEC did not. [FWIW: The DEC/Intel Fortran Front-End was written in Pascal -- still is last time I talked to the compiler folks]. I do not know what the Freiburghouse folks used for a compiler-compiler (Steve or Doug might ), but >>I think<< it might not have used one. Culter famously led the new backend for it and had to shuttle tapes from MIT to ZKO in Nashua during the development. The backend was written in a combination of PL/1, BLISS32 and Assembler. Once the compiler could self host, everything moved to ZKO. That compiler originally targeted VMS, but was moved to Unix/VAX at one point as someone else pointed out. When the new GEM compilers were about 10-15 years later, I was under the impressions that the original Freiburghouse/Culter hacked front-end was reworked to use the GEM backend system, as GEM used BLISS, and C for the runtimes and a small amount of Assembler as needed for each ISA [And I believe it continues to be the same from VSI folks today]. GEM based PL/1 was released on Alpha when I was still at DEC, and I believe that it was released for Itanium a few years later [by Intel under contract to Compaq/HP]. VSI has built a GEM based Intel*64 and is releasing/has released VMS for same using it; I would suspect they moved PL/1 over also [Their target customer is the traditional DEC VMS customer that still has active applications and wants to run them on modern HW]. I'll have to ask one of my former coworkers, who at one point was and I still think is, the main compiler guy at VSI/resident GEM expert. > Wikipedia claims that IBM is still developing a PL/I compiler, which I > suppose I have no reason to disbelieve, but I'm very curious as to who is > using it and for what purpose. > As best I can tell, commercial sites still use it for traditional code, just like Cobol. It's interesting, Intel does neither but we spend a ton of money on Fortran because so much development (both old and new) in the scientific community requires it. I answered why elsewhere in more detail: Where is Fortran used these days and Is Fortran still alive My >>guess<< is that PL/1 is suffering the same fate as Cobol, and fading because the apps are being/have been slowly rewritten from custom code to using COTS solutions from folks like Oracle, SAS, BAAN and the like. Not so for Fortran and the reason is that the math has not changed. The core of these codes is the same was it was in the 1960s/70s when they were written. A friend of mine used to be the Chief Metallurgist for the US Gov at NIST and as Dr. Fek put it so well: * "I have over 60 years worth of data that we have classified and we understand what it is telling us. If you magically gave me new code to do the same thing as what we do with our processes that we have developed over the years, I would have to reclassify all that data. It's just not economically interesting." *I personally equate it to the QWERTY keyboard. Just not going to change. *i.e.* *"Simple economics always beats sophisticated architecture."* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 05:40:46 2021 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:40:46 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] Book Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [-TUHS, +COFF] On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:00 AM Henry Bent wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 21:31, Mary Ann Horton wrote: > >> PL/I was my favorite mainframe programming language my last two years as >> an undergrad. I liked how it incorporated ideas from FORTRAN, ALGOL, and >> COBOL. My student job was to enhance a PL/I package for a History >> professor. >> > > What language were the PL/I compilers written in? > The only PL/I compiler I have access to is, somewhat ironically, the Multics PL/1 compiler. It is largely self-hosting; more details can be found here: https://multicians.org/pl1.html (Note Doug's name appears prominently.) Wikipedia claims that IBM is still developing a PL/I compiler, which I > suppose I have no reason to disbelieve, but I'm very curious as to who is > using it and for what purpose. > I imagine most of it is legacy code in a mainframe environment, similarly to COBOL. I can't imagine that many folks are considering new development in PL/1 other than in retro/hobbyist environments and some mainframe shops where there's a heavy existing PL/I investment. - Dan C. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grog at lemis.com Wed Nov 24 10:38:53 2021 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 11:38:53 +1100 Subject: [COFF] Self-hosting languages (was: Book Recommendation) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20211124003853.GD96868@eureka.lemis.com> On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 at 10:23:47 -0500, Clem Cole wrote: > Moving to COFF where this probably belongs because its less UNIX and more > PL oriented. > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:00 AM Henry Bent wrote: > >> What language were the PL/I compilers written in? >> > I don't know about anyone else, but the VAX PL/1 front-end was bought by > DEC from Freiburghouse (??SP??) in Framingham, MA. It was written in PL/1 > on a Multics system. I can easily believe that PL/I was written in PL/I. While at Tandem, I met Don Nelson, apparently an important member of the COBOL world. He was, of course, responsible for our COBOL compiler (which, again I'm told, had quite a good reputation). Don told me that he had written it entirely in COBOL. Now that's a whole different level of difficulty. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Nov 24 11:57:13 2021 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:57:13 -0500 Subject: [COFF] PL/1 [Was: Re: [TUHS] Book Recommendation] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Over to COFF... On 2021-11-23 02:57, Henry Bent wrote: > On Mon, 22 Nov 2021 at 21:31, Mary Ann Horton > wrote: > > PL/I was my favorite mainframe programming language my last two > years as > an undergrad. I liked how it incorporated ideas from FORTRAN, > ALGOL, and > COBOL. My student job was to enhance a PL/I package for a History > professor. > > > What language were the PL/I compilers written in? From AFIPS '69 (Fall): "The Multics compiler is the only PL/1 compiler written in PL/1 [...]" HOPL I has a talk on the early history of PL/1 (born as NPL) but nothing on the question. N. > > Wikipedia claims that IBM is still developing a PL/I compiler, which I > suppose I have no reason to disbelieve, but I'm very curious as to who > is using it and for what purpose. > > -Henry From brantley at coraid.com Wed Nov 24 11:48:00 2021 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2021 20:48:00 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Self-hosting languages (was: Book Recommendation) In-Reply-To: <20211124003853.GD96868@eureka.lemis.com> References: <20211124003853.GD96868@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: Unstring was his friend, I would guess. Nothing in COBOL is recursive. > On Nov 23, 2021, at 7:38 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 23 November 2021 at 10:23:47 -0500, Clem Cole wrote: >> Moving to COFF where this probably belongs because its less UNIX and more >> PL oriented. >> >>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2021 at 3:00 AM Henry Bent wrote: >>> >>> What language were the PL/I compilers written in? >>> >> I don't know about anyone else, but the VAX PL/1 front-end was bought by >> DEC from Freiburghouse (??SP??) in Framingham, MA. It was written in PL/1 >> on a Multics system. > > I can easily believe that PL/I was written in PL/I. While at Tandem, > I met Don Nelson, apparently an important member of the COBOL world. > He was, of course, responsible for our COBOL compiler (which, again > I'm told, had quite a good reputation). Don told me that he had > written it entirely in COBOL. > > Now that's a whole different level of difficulty. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > _______________________________________________ > COFF mailing list > COFF at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff